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Ben Sims

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Re: Bring on Pinehurst No.2!
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2013, 11:14:36 PM »
It's going to be an interesting two US Opens before going back to the traditional in 2016 at Oakmont.  Pinehurst itself (obviously) isn't a departure from tradition.  But the present version of Pinehurst #2 after C&C's renovation will certainly be a departure from the last several US Opens.  Then the wild card Chambers Bay hosts.

Both--I surmise--will be a stiff challenge for the USGA setup man to get the scores his commitee deems appropriate while remaining true to the golf course.  I wonder just how faithfully Mr. Davis will hold to the words he's already spoken about not changing things at either venue from what they look like now. 

Bottom line, will we see rough at Pinehurst?  We most assuredly will at Chambers.  But how much of those huge fairways is he willing to let grow out?

Rob Hallford

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Re: Bring on Pinehurst No.2!
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2013, 02:55:53 PM »
I played #2 the summer after the C&C redo then again this past December.  The course was amazingly fun both times, but steps were underway to toughen the course during my recent visit.  Grounds crews were peeling back rows of sod from the edges of the fairway, narrowing things considerably.  With additional plantings of wire grass, I'm curious how much of a crap shoot it will be in the unkept areas off the fairway.  Sure, there's officially no rough, but if you're in a field of wire grass isn't that worse (a long search for a ball followed by hacking it back to the fairway)?  My fear is that with reduced width and additional penalty off the fairway, the C&C redo will lose a lot of what made me drop my jaw when I first saw it--width, angles, heroic recovery opportunities--all in the name of defending almighty par for 2 weeks in 2014.  Maybe they'll re-restore it after the Open. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bring on Pinehurst No.2!
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2013, 03:03:16 PM »
They'll probably do the same thing they did at Merion: grow penal rough and reduce fairway width.

I doubt we'll see Merion-ish rough at Pinehurst.  They returned the peripheral areas to a natural state for a reason.

WW

Wade, I am excited about seeing how #2 actually plays without the rough. Certainly the most unique set up the Open has seen in quite some time, right?

Excuse me, but Pinehurst #2 actually has rough. What Merion has was cultivated and manicured hay.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Keith Doleshel

Re: Bring on Pinehurst No.2!
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2013, 04:47:19 PM »
Does anybody find it interesting that the USGA seems to go out of their way to protect par for the men, but not so much for the ladies?  There have been Women's Opens in recent history which have been won at even par, but also a number of them have been won at -5 or better.  Just wondering how the USGA is going to have to dial it down for the ladies, especially if they want to make sure the men don't go low. 

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bring on Pinehurst No.2!
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2013, 06:20:55 PM »
I played #2 the summer after the C&C redo then again this past December.  The course was amazingly fun both times, but steps were underway to toughen the course during my recent visit.  Grounds crews were peeling back rows of sod from the edges of the fairway, narrowing things considerably.

Is this true?  Was it clearly Open prep and not normal maintenance work?  If so this is very distressing.  Calling Chris B....
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:48:31 AM by Jud T »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bring on Pinehurst No.2!
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2013, 08:19:38 AM »
Quote
"I played #2 the summer after the C&C redo then again this past December.  The course was amazingly fun both times, but steps were underway to toughen the course during my recent visit.  Grounds crews were peeling back rows of sod from the edges of the fairway, narrowing things considerably."

Rob that's perceptive and it's certainly worthy of being pointed out. Can you guess what going on with that?
It's understandable you would think it was done to toughen up the course for the tournament. However, that is not the case.
There are a handful of modifications that have been done since they re-opened the course - a bit more than what you were referring to. All of these things were done by the C&C team. They weren't able to complete every single thing before re-opening. That was understood all along. The plan was always to come back and massage it here and there.
But you are right that they put sandy waste areas in certain places. That's part of the C&C plan. The biggest work along those lines I saw was about 8 feet at one point. But like I say that's part of the C&C plan. It is definitely not a regression to the previous version of the course and it is definitely not your standard USGA toughening.
You can be quite sure they are entirely keen to do this right - retaining the playing angles, etc. The team there is very smart and they would never be dumb enough to muck up that project. If they were messing it up you can be sure I'd be grousing about it.

Quote
"With additional plantings of wire grass, I'm curious how much of a crap shoot it will be in the unkempt areas off the fairway."

Again, an understandable point of view. And you're right that there will be an element of chance - maybe you'll get a workable lie and maybe you'll get one that is more challenging. That's what you get when you play the shot incorrectly. For me, that is a vastly more interesting golfing equation than you'll usually find. There is going to be a lot of room off the tee - which is almost unheard of for a US Open. But it will also matter which side of the fairway you hit it on - also virtually unheard of for that tournament. Actually, that's probably my No. 1 criticism of American courses in general. That is, far too few courses offer actual strategy off the tee. With the large majority you're simply trying to hit it in the fairway - with little difference or advantage to be found on either side of the narrowish fairway. To moi that's simply a less interesting and less enjoyable design. Why would you want to do that? But I digress.
Your standard US Open rough is radically deficient in playing interest. It has all the charm and intrigue of an Excel spreadsheet. The thing about dealing with the native plant is that you shouldn't have hit it in there in the first place. With those very wide fairways if you did hit it in there then you don't really have the right to complain. You deserve to be challenged. And some challenges are far superior in a design and playing sense to other ones.
Well, I could blabber on but I think you get the idea. If you have any other questions I'll be glad to give you my point of view for whatever that's worth. But I would be careful not to jump to wrong conclusions. This project could hardly be handled better. It's a long process and if the brilliant work they've done doesn't work for somebody then well...good luck.

Rob Hallford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Bring on Pinehurst No.2!
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2013, 11:55:30 AM »
Chris,

That's good to hear that it's all part of the plan.  The caddies we had were saying it was playing too easy and that the changes were to toughen it a bit.  I guess that's what I get for listening to caddie gossip.  Agree that it's not standard USGA toughening; there's no way they could grow rough in at this point. 

I agree with all your points and the general philosophy of width, angles, and recovery opportunities for mishit shots (albeit dicey).  I think the redo was completely brilliant and a vast improvement over the bermuda rough that was there before (I have played it both before and after the C&C work).  It's visually stunning and strategically interesting.  I guess I'm worried that the USGA saw things finished and said, "Uh oh, the guys will KILL this place," and started a massive narrowing/wiregrass planting campaign to cover their perceived mistake.  The spirit of the redo is all that is right with golf; I guess I don't trust the blue blazers to stick to their guns when par is on the line...

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