[Nigel Islam]

Is there any consensus as to what should or should not be attributed to the good doctor in Australia?
From my understanding he deserves credit for Royal Melbourne West, The Australian, and Flinders.
He obviously had a large hand in Kingston Heath, Royal Adelaide, NSW, Royal Queensland, Victoria, and Metropolitan for whoch he deserves at least a reconstruction credit.

What role did he have in Royal Sydney, Barwon Heads, Indoorpilly, Brisbane, Manly, Bonnie Dunes, Sandringham?

Then of course there is Royal Melbourne East, Yarra Yarra, and Lake Karrinyup which I think most attribute to Alex Russell.

[Scott Warren]

Nigel,

If he had any input at Bonnie Doon it's no longer there, and may well have been on a previous property occupied by the club. But glad to say we have 21st Century equivalent working there at the moment!

Likewise The Australian and R. Syd - anything MacKenzie might have done is well and truly gone. R. Syd these days is all Ross Watson and The Aus is Nicklaus.

Mackenzie's course at NSWGC was very different to what is there today, the bones of which are Eric Apperly's work with changes since his redesign by all and sundry, currently Norman. Notably, the famous 5th, 6th and 14th holes are all Apperly originals, not part of the course MacKenzie laid out.

The design of Royal Melbourne (West) and the bunkering at Kingston Heath are MacKenzie's real achievements in Australia.

Neil Crafter is an absolute Dr Mac expert and will hopefully chime in.

[Colin Macqueen]

Nigel,

Certainly no input as far as Indooroopilly Golf Club of today is concerned. But the oddest thing is that I have heard people suggest that MacKenzie had some input to the course now called St. Lucia Golf Links. This short, 5400 metres, but fun course was originally Indooroopilly Golf Club but in the sixties (I think) a deal was struck whereby Brisbane City Council took over this course as a public facility and IGC moved to its present site hard by the Brisbane River.

When I heard about this MacKenzie tid-bit I asked a few of the venerable "oldest members" at IGC but got no joy. I phoned Brisbane City Council but alas alack got nowhere again.  It may all just be baloney but maybe I should track down when MacKenzie was in Australia and work harder asking about the history over that time period. That would indeed be a coup but I can hardly believe it!

He came to Australia on the good ship S.S. Otranto in 1926 so I might just try my luck again over the next wee while. Here is a neat article from Golf Architecture by Neil Crafter but I don't know when it was written.

http://www.golfstrategies.com.au/graphics/articles/Mackenzie%20GA8.pdf

Cheers Colin

[Scott Warren]

Nigel,

This thread, and the link within its OP, should be of interest to you.

17th revision of the Alister MacKenzie chronology

[Nigel Islam]

The Saint Lucia/Indoorpilly stuff came from the timeline. It sounds like the Flinders course might have had the most AM in it of any course if he actually saw it twice, 24 years apart

[Tom_Doak]

The Saint Lucia/Indoorpilly stuff came from the timeline. It sounds like the Flinders course might have had the most AM in it of any course if he actually saw it twice, 24 years apart

Nigel:

I don't know how one should define "the most MacKenzie in it" but I think your definition is pretty ridiculous.  MacKenzie spent a lot of time at Royal Melbourne with his collaborators, and they built most every feature as he described it to them, although he was only on site for the construction of one hole (the 5th West).  He also planned out the bunkering at Kingston Heath pretty precisely.

If you are limiting MacKenzie's "work" to only the things that happened while he was on site, then his career would be almost negligible.  Except for Alwoodley and Moortown and Pasatiempo, he wasn't on site for very long, anywhere.  But to attribute the success of all those other courses strictly to his associates is a pretty bad misreading of history.

[Neil_Crafter]

Nigel
Yes there is a consensus on Mackenzie's works in Australia in late 1926.

The courses he designed/redesigned are as follows:

Victoria
> Royal Melbourne (West Course)
> Victoria
> Metropolitan
> Kingston Heath
> Barwon Heads
> Flinders

South Australia
> Royal Adelaide

New South Wales
> New South Wales
> Australian
> Royal Sydney
> Bonnie Doon (old course)
> Manly

Queensland
> Royal Queensland
> Brisbane
> Indooroopilly (now St Lucia)

Tom is correct in his comments. Even though Mackenzie likely visited Flinders twice - the 1902 visit is still a matter of some conjecture - it does not mean this was one of his courses with his greatest input.

Both Yarra Yarra and Lake Karrinyup are all the work of Alex Russell, for the partnership Mackenzie & Russell. There is no evidence that Mackenzie ever saw the land for either of these projects. There is some likelihood that Russell sent Mackenzie his plans for comment though, and almost certainly a share of fees.

Mackenzie had no involvement at Sandringham. Russell designed some new holes for a public course that used some of the old holes of Royal Melbourne's Sandringham course that were excess to the West course prior to them being developed for housing.
Neil

[Nigel Islam]

Thanks Neil and Tom, I wasn't trying to limit Mackenzie, rather trying to get it straight. Sorry if I worded it poorly. I've been reading a lot of the old threads, but it got a little challenging to follow.

[Anthony Butler]

Mackenzie's course at NSWGC was very different to what is there today, the bones of which are Eric Apperly's work with changes since his redesign by all and sundry, currently Norman. Notably, the famous 5th, 6th and 14th holes are all Apperly originals, not part of the course MacKenzie laid out.

A couple of additional points...

Mackenzie can justifiably lay claim to the following holes at NSW.

1, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 13, 16, 18 insofar as the green sites are pretty much where he indicated in his course map and the routing or angles have changed minimally despite the construction of  new tees. The rest of layout and routing is pretty much Apperly, although no-one seems to want claim or attribute credit for the second green. All the changes done by various companies since are almost exclusively in the areas of new bunkering and recontouring greens and their surrounds.

[Scott Warren]

Anthony,

How can you credit MacKenzie with the 5th when he had the hole playing as two par fours (first to the ridge, then a new hole to the shore) and not one par five over the ridge to the shore?

[Neil_Crafter]

Scott
That is not correct I'm afraid. Mackenzie's 5th hole was a par 5, albeit a fairly short one of 423 yards. Please see the 1930 aerial with hole numbers overlaid and the course card. The green was short of its current location on the coast, and 6 played inland rather than as a par 3 along the coast. Lots of different holes to today's course!

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[Ricardo Ramirez Calvo]

Neil,

Just a brief note on the yardage of the 5th. It seems to me that the numbers are measured in meters, so that the 5th would have been a par five of 463 yards in Mackenzie's map. That length would be consistent with the minimum for a par 5 at that time (460 yards). May be I am reading it wrong.

All the best,

[Scott Warren]

Thanks Neil,

Where does that place 5 tee in relation to today's hole? Green in the same place?

[Nigel Islam]

So 15 courses were designed/renovated by Mackenzie on his trip to Australia and another 2 in New Zealand? That is impressive given the short time he had to work with.

[Neil_Crafter]

Ricardo, of course you are correct, the length is in metres and not yards.

Scott, my recollection is that the land where the helicopter base is now to the left of the 5th tees originally was in the club's lease but they lost it for defence purposes prior to WW2. So the par 3 4th hole and 5th tees were lost and the 5th hole had to be realigned a fair bit. The tees today are of course closeby the current 4th green, which was 3rd green in the first layout. To my eye the 5th green today seems at least 30-40m beyond where the original green was sited, and closer to the water.

Here is part of an aerial from the 1930s, probably late 30s, which shows the 5th hole, and you can see that the hole has been realigned by Apperly and the old par 3 is now under the defence land. Interesting bunkering on 5 and 6 too.

[Neil_Crafter]

Nigel
MacKenzie only redesigned Titirangi while in New Zealand. While there has been conjecture that he may have visited and given advice to other courses around Auckland there has been no actual evidence found to support this sadly.

[Mike_Clayton]

From The Spirit of St Andrews.

'While in New Zealand I designed a golf course at Maungakiki, Auckland (Titirangi). The construction of the holes appeared to be good, judging from the photographs they sent me.'

[Nigel Islam]

Nigel
MacKenzie only redesigned Titirangi while in New Zealand. While there has been conjecture that he may have visited and given advice to other courses around Auckland there has been no actual evidence found to support this sadly.

So he did not have anything to do with Rotorua GC? Still it was a pretty good two months in influencing golf down under.

[Neil_Crafter]

Mackenzie certainly visited Rotorua and saw the course, possibly even played it, but there is no record of him having given any advice. remodelling work at Rotorua was later undertaken by Charles Redhead, a transplanted Britisher (Yorkshireman too I think) who did quite a bit of work in NZ. Very likely that he and Mackenzie met up while Mac was in NZ. Unfortunately no library has the Rotorua newspapers for January 1927.

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