Why Doesn't Sand Hollow Get More Press?

[Tom_Doak]

As I understand it he was head of his own firm the entire time he worked on this project so design associate probably does not adequately describe what he did anyway.

I have always been careful in describing the work I did while with G & P as I was an actual design associate and everything I did under their banner was clearly their work.  That was a clear line.  One independent architect working with another independent architect is a little muddier.

Neal:

I understand and certainly these types of arrangements are going to multiply in the current era, where more and more guys are becoming independent contractors -- of their own impetus, or not. 

For example, Bruce Hepner and Jim Urbina both have their own companies now.  If I were to work with either of them again, we'd have to be clear who was doing what amongst oursleves, and sort out the credit situation with the client at the beginning of the project, rather than letting it sort itself out at the end -- even though sometimes, that probably doesn't wind up reflecting the reality of who did what in the end.

Sadly, you are right that many clients are not excited about giving co-design credits.  They think it muddies the water and that it might indicate that the bigger-name guy wasn't as involved on their project as on the others where he gets sole credit.  I am trying to figure out how to address that going forward with my own associates, because I'd like them to get more credit for what they do, AND I'd like to start feeling less responsibility to make multiple construction visits to every project we do.  If anyone has any ideas on how to do that so it works for all parties involved, send me an e-mail!

As for Sand Hollow, whoever did the routing did a great job, and whoever thought through the bunker placement and greens contouring did a very good job.  Perhaps both gentlemen deserve applause for that combination, but until then, I've gotta go with whatever the client says.  The Confidential Guide raises enough hackles already, without me getting chewed out for giving credit to the wrong guy for the courses I LIKED!  In fact, maybe I should eliminate the architectural credits from it altogether, since the purpose of the book is to identify great courses, rather than to dole out the credit for them.

[Andy Stamm]

I noticed that the green fees include a cart fee. How walkable is the course? Specifically how are the green to tee walks?

Thanks.

[Tom_Doak]

I noticed that the green fees include a cart fee. How walkable is the course? Specifically how are the green to tee walks?

Thanks.

Andy:

It's a bit stretched out, but seemed pretty walkable to me.  There are a couple of longer green to tee walks, especially from 15 to 16, but nothing impossible.  Still, it's pretty warm there most of the year, and there's no shade, so most people are going to take a cart.

[paul cowley]

I'd also check Forrest Fezler's influence in the final design as it was his construction company that executed the work and the same personel that built most all of Mike Stranz's courses.

[Tom_Doak]

Holy cow ... a Paul Cowley sighting!  How are you, man?

I am sure there were some talented shapers involved in the course ... but if we are going to start giving credit to every shaper, then there is no end to the credit roll.

[paul cowley]

Hey Tom....doing well enough considering the times.

I have relocated of late to Cabo to built two new holes on our Diamante course, and to help project manage with the developer the new El Cardonal course....Tiger Woods Design groups latest course that we are currently building in the western half of the property.

Their course occupies a site that, while not as dramatic as ours, starts in the lower dune area and progresses up the hill into a mature Sonoran desert environment filled with steep arroyos and wonderful views of the Pacific.

When we first built our course we were no able to go forward of the primary dune and as a result holes 12 and 13 turned inland in an out and back fashion around our irrigation lagoon. The new holes will now leave the par 3 11th that sits on the crest of the dune (remember?), and head straight towards the pacific and return to the dune at 14. Both will be far better holes than their predesessors.

This week the World Cub Championship is being played here and Golf Magazine is one of its sponsors. Joe Passov is in attendance and had nothing but high praise for both the courses at Streamsong...well done!

[Jay Flemma]

Didn't Forrest Fezler work on this course as well?

[Bill Satterfield]

Before Sand Hollow was finished I remember reading an article where the developer or design team (can't remember which) said that Sand Hollow had a par three on the back nine that offered the excitement and exhilaration of Cypress Point's 16th hole.  I remember telling my golf buddy, "Oh please!  I get tired of these over-hyped comparisons.  NOTHING compares to #16 at Cypress!"  While the 16th at Cypress is still king, I wasn't disappointed at all when I played the 15th at Sand Hollow.  WOW!  It is a jaw dropper!  The back nine at Sand Hollow is probably the best back nine in the region and is right up there with Glenwild as the best track in the Beehive State. 

[Stephen Davis]

Bill,

While I have not had the pleasure of playing Cypress Point, but the 15th at Sand Hollow is up there with the 8th at Pronghorn Fazio an a few holes at Bandon for the best one shot hole I have played. It is an impressive hole to say the least.

[Brian_Ewen]

Some nice photos of Sand Hollow uploaded the other day here :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/golfcoursepix/sets/72157632722304523/with/8458601572/

[Tom_Doak]

That par-3 was indeed spectacular, but I thought the preceding holes were actually better golf holes.  In fact, one of the things I liked best about the 14th hole was how they managed to set it up so you look right through the 14th green and see the 15th behind it.

[Stephen Davis]

Tom, I agree with you completely. I think the stretch from 11-15 is really great. 12 is a very good par 4, 13 begs to be birdied and then you come to the tough long 14th with the back drop you describe. They are all great holes that set you up well for 15.

[Mike_Young]

Not to take away from Sand Hollow but it was interesting to find here that ASGCA credit for a course is different than public credit on a website.  That might should be explained to more than a few guys.

One post says  "No mention of Andy on their website.  It appears he was an associate architect of John's at the time.  You wouldn't know that from looking at Andy's website, where nearly every project is in reality a Fought, Pascuzzo or Schmidt-Curley project, but that isn't clearly spelled out."

and then another post by the same poster says:
" I don't recall what courses he used for ASGCA admittance credit, but there is a bit different than public credit on websites, etc. " 
So which is it?

That really confuses me. And if you really find that confusing look at a lot of the websites and you will see a slew or architects out there listing courses on their websites as though they were the designer when they were actually working for someone else.  And I even asked one course in my area if the person who had listed it for credit if the person had designed the course and was told " oh no he was the turf expert". 

Fact is we all rely on a stable of people to do anything in life but the credit will always go to the person whose name is on the door.  It just can't be any other way. 

[billb]

Tom:

I played Sand Hollow in October of 2011. I was disappointed in the Championship Course, I thought the Links Course was tremendous.

As someone said in another thread, carts are mandatory on the Championship Course. Riding a cart from 12 green to 13 tee was hairy enough, I couldn't imagine it being walked.

This begs the question - is it a good routing plan if it can't be walked?

Yes, the front nine has some nice red rock backdrops but was on the boring side. It struck me as a golf course waiting for houses to be built all around it.

The bunkers were bereft of any loose sand, they were basically hard red dirt. Evidently there is a problem with the wind blowing all the sand out of the bunkers. Maybe the town is named Hurricane for a reason?

The Links Course is a collection of bits of Scotland in Red Rock country. Right next to the first tee is a huge putting green with 18 freshly cut holes, alas, no Ladies Clubhouse. Then the course: stone walls crossing fairways, a double green, a Road Hole, and bunkers fringed with wispy grass. Lots and lots of room off most of the tees, but strong shot values on the approaches. Walkable as it gets and only $15.00.

One of the pro shop staff mentioned a plan to build another Links 9. The new 9 would be south of the existing 9 and require relocation of the putting green and driving range.