Holes that Play like 10 at Riviera

[RDecker]

Is the 10th at Riviera the most important american golf hole that doesn't involve excessive visual interest(anything at pebble or cypress as ex.) or any tournament history (any hole at Augusta lets say)?  It is devoid of any fluff as I see it yet continues to confound and inspire in the modern era.  Great stuff and suprising it isn't copied more.

[B.Ross]

there's another hole or two at rustic canyon in moorpark that play like 10 at riviera, i suppose. i believe it's #3 where the green is even more driveable than it is on #12 (and i doubt they flipped the 9s since i played there last in 2011)... also #7 there is reachable from the tee if you crank it.

am i missing more criteria than just a risk/reward par 4 where driving green is feast/famine? if so, staying in SoCal, the 8th on the valley course (or maybe the 7th hole but i believe the 8th hole) at robinson ranch is like this, though it plays uphill.... the rinky dink 8th at tierra rejada is also a r/r driveable 4 par.

on the east coast, the 15th at fenway in scarsdale, ny is very akin to 10 at the riv, and so is #1 at fenway (but 15 is a far superior hole)

[John Ezekowitz]

Just thinking out loud: for the pros, might the 10th at Merion play like the 10th at Riviera?

[Robert Thompson]

Tom: I actually think maybe the photos don't quite tell the full story at Sagebrush's short four. The goal, if you can't fly it to the green (which does play away from the direct line of play) is to play as close to the left as you can. The hazard is really only there if you try straight for the green, and the shot from the left isn't quite Riviera hard (what is?) but is tough enough to make you ponder whether bailing out is a good idea. I thought it was a relatively smart hole.

There's no hazard to carry from the left side, just OB. But there's tons of fairway. I'd suggest Zokol isn't a bad model for a player/designer, at the very least because he was never a long hitter, so he has a good understanding of the strategy of not being able to play directly for the green. And yes, there was definitely a collaboration between Whitman and Zokol on this... it isn't a player putting his name on it for marketing. It was a labor of love for Zokol, one that unfortunately didn't work out.

What's the formula? Short par 4 + downhill + skinny green + slight doggy = like Riveria 10th?

That's a good question, if the template is so vague that somebody thinks the 10th at The Belfry fits.  [Note:  I admire the 10th at The Belfry, and the designers should get credit for coming up with it.  I am pretty sure that Riviera was nowhere in their minds.]

As for some of the other examples, the key difference to me is what you see on the hole at Sagebrush.  [I thought Rod Whitman designed Sagebrush, not Dick Zokol, but that's for another day.]  A pro like Zokol wants to make you carry a hazard to get to the left side of the hole for the preferred angle into the green ... so that only a good player can do it, and everyone else is left with an impossible pitch.  That's the professional's definition of risk and reward.

Thomas' definition was much different.  He GAVE you the left side of the hole, as long as you didn't try to get too close to the green.  That's why he could tighten the screws on the second shot with that VERY narrow green and the wrong-way tilt -- because he gave you no excuse for being to the right.  The risk penalty is all in the second shot -- but it results from going for the green and missing to the wrong side.

By contrast, I haven't played the Sagebrush hole, but I'd bet anything that the approach from the right is not nearly as severe as the one at Riviera -- the designer has to rationalize that he couldn't punish the average player that much.  But, that's also quite convenient for a professional, since it means that whether he goes left or right, it should still be an easy four for him, and maybe a three.

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

Hole #8 at Colorado Golf Club reminds me of #10 at Riviera quite a bit, especially when the hole is tucked towards the back/left portion of the green (which I will focus on the rest of the post), with bunkers guarding front/back and to the side of the green.  It is a short Par 4, 311 yards from the tips and slightly uphill.  It is drive-able for big hitters, however, being in any of the bunkers surrounding the green, and holding the green from any of the bunkers to this pin location is very difficult.  The top bunker feeds toward the bottom left bunker.  The left bunker feeds down the ridge line.  And the front/left bunker is very very deep/steep.  The other play it to take the ball to the right of the hole, and have a manageable wedge shot into that pin location.  The back left portion of the green is slightly elevated from the main section of the green, and everything from the top left portion feeds down into the lower left bunker or the lower section of the green.  Attached are pictures of the hole, and the green complex (with a line indicating where the elevation is in the green and how/where it feeds to).  It is really rough, I did my best to try and articulate it's dimensions with Windows Paint.

Watching the playoff last year between Haas, Bradley and Mickelson and watching Haas take the safe direction where he had a manageable wedge shot onto the green (in the general direction towards the pin) as opposed to Bradley/Mickelson who drove their balls into the bunkers surrounding the pin/green and having difficulty placing/holding their sand shots on the green (which is like an egg shell) greatly reminded me of my many rounds and playing this hole.  I now just pull out 5 iron or rescue club and take the short wedge shot in. 

It's a great hole!  I have seen many many high scores on this short par 4.  And those that put their ball where they can manage their second shot are generally rewarded with a decent look a birdie.

[jeffwarne]

What amazes me most is
A. How seldom you see a hole like Riviera's 10th
B.When there is one similar, it's always qualified by " the green doesn't have as much tilt"
  Isn't the tilt the (and the narrowness) the whole thing? particularly at a short length?

It really amazes me how seldom this feature is used, instead the design world has fixated on tiers and random internal contours.

[Thomas Dai]

Take one Redan style par-3, doesn't matter if the green angles left or right, install a tee 75-150 yards further back and you have a par-4 not too dissimilar to the 10th at Riviera. There are normally only a few ways of doing most things, the differences are normally only in the final detail. Or am I being an old cynic?

Holes that pose questions in a golfers mind prior to teeing-off are always nice though.

All the best.