Was Mackenzie's 11th at Timber Point an unrealistic design from the start?

[Mark Bourgeois]

A little buggy but good enough to get the discussion going:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/Timber11.html

The original design appeared intact in 1930, although the aerial's quality is very poor.

It looks like the design suffered a "triple tap" assassination: first in the 1930s, second in the 1950s/1960s and the final blow with the redesign in the 1970s. Was the hole too hard? Why was turf expanded during the Great Depression? That's not less expensive, is it?

[Mac Plumart]

Educate the ignorant...which hole is 11?

[Bill_McBride]

Mac, that's the same hole photographed over the years.  The final photo is from 1966.  Talk about being dumbed down. 

Was Timber Point built as a new course by Mackenzie?   Have to confess I know little about it or Inwood. 

[Mark Bourgeois]

The carousel shows aerial images of Timber Point's 11th hole in 1930, 1938, 1954 and finally in 1966.

Timber Point was an ultra-exclusive club on the South Shore of LI. Charles Alison designed a visually stunning, highly demanding layout that tipped out at something like 6,800 yards, at the time about the upper limit for golf courses according to USGA yardage specifications.

The 11th was based on Mackenzie's prize-winning hole for the Lido contest. A 460-yard par 4 with alternate routes, the 11th demanded golfers "island hop" oceans of sand, as shown by the 1930 aerial.

Here is a comparo of the 1930 and 2012 layouts: http://golfcoursehistories.com/Timber.html

And here is a rough routing plan using the 1930 aerial:



Below is a ground level photo showing the 140-yard 12th, a pitch across a lagoon. The 15th green is in the distance: one of the most fearsome-looking holes I have ever seen -- well, picture of a hole -- a Gibraltar Hole. If you can find a picture you will see how staggering it truly was.


Sold to Suffolk County, in 1972 the new owners shoehorned in 27 holes where once 18 expansive holes sprawled. The loss of the original Timber Point is considered one of the greatest architectural crimes / tragedies in golf course history.

[Tom_Doak]

Someone asked in that online chat on golf.com the other day what course I would most like to restore, and I responded, Timber Point.

Then another fellow came on a little later and said he knew a bunch of people at the county, and asked if I would do it for free.  I said I would, if he could get it together.  But I'm not holding my breath.

I had not realized that the 11th hole was based on MacKenzie's Lido-prize winner.  Pretty funny considering that thread here a couple of weeks ago by Neil Crafter, where Alison criticized MacKenzie's design in a column for the Times of London as being impractical because of all the alternate routes.  Actually, the photo below makes the hole look about as much like the old 4th at Lido as the 18th.

I do know that the 11th played through what was some pretty wet ground, and my understanding is the main thing that would hold back a restoration of the course (other than the $$$) is that some of the original fairway areas are now wetlands.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Tom, I thought it looked like Lido 4, too, but in the actual play I see strong similarities to Lido 18. The Mackenzie angle comes from Wexler's book. Not sure of his source or, for that matter, if it's just his own interpretation.

Interesting about the long-shot resto. Are you sure the wetlands issue isn't a canard? Look at where the water appears in this comparision:
http://golfcoursehistories.com/Timber.html

Seems to me the current edition's wetlands don't overlay the original's routings, at least not based on this really poor quality 1930 aerial. As an aside, they appear far more contrived than the original's, at least from 30,000 feet. I should post / include the 1938 aerial. Much better quality. Let me get cracking on that...

I am working also on a comparison of aerials pre / post Sandy. Quite a high-water mark on the course. But I gather they're just cleaning it up for a March 15th open. An opportunity lost.

[Tom_Doak]

Damn ... I did not think about Sandy and what it might have done to the course.  That would have been the perfect opportunity to go in and fix stuff back to where it should be.

Mr. Dye used Hurricane Hugo to good effect in building The Ocean Course at Kiawah.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Aerial showing most of the course as it appeared from the air on 4 November 2012, a mere six days after landfall:



The way things seem to be going with the climate, the future may hold several "once in a lifetime" opportunities to bring back the original. 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Timber Point was definitely the course that interested me most from Wexler's book (there is also a spectacular photo of the 15th in there and I think I used it in a before and after comparison in an essay I wrote some years ago).... Either way, those old photos were incredibly inspirational

[Mark Bourgeois]

Here is the course shown pre vs post Sandy: http://golfcoursehistories.com/TimberSandy.html

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark, nice thread.

Interesting that Alison would do a "Gibraltar" hole which was Mackenzie's hole from Moortown. Perhaps because this course was designed while the Colt, Mackenzie & Alison partnership was intact Alison felt able to include a couple of Mackenzie holes, but it is a little odd given how critical of the Lido design Alison was back in 1914, as Tom pointed out. The hole at Timber Point is only a "two ways" hole rather than the "three ways" that Mackenzie designed, so perhaps he saw it as an opportunity to adapt it for a real situation.

I'll ask Dan Wexler where he got the info that the 11th came from Mac's Lido design and report back if I have any success.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Neil

That would be great.

What's your guess as to why the hole was redesigned? The left hand route, although requiring shorter carries, nevertheless required three carries, a daunting prospect. I'm sure many golfers found more than two or even three ways to play it!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Doing a little more digging on the course, I discovered a late winter storm in 1933 flooded the back nine. Evidently the club at some point abandoned that nine, perhaps in the late 1930s or early 1940s.

Somewhere in this mess of the 1940s the county Republican Party gained control of the club. In 1953 the party leased the club to three men who sought to restore the course, incorporating under the name Great River Country Club, after which became the club's name, superseding the Timber Point Club.

Somewhere in here the back nine was brought back, perhaps in 1946 but I can't find the article mentioning that so I am unsure of the date.

In 1955 the members purchased the club and commenced an "improvement" program, adding lots of shrubbery and an Olympic-sized swimming pool.

Apparently, that didn't go so well, as reports surfaced as early as 1962 of the county considering buying the course.

[Mark Bourgeois]

I found this interesting description of the 11th from the May 5, 1931, New York Sun:

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark, I have been in touch with Daniel Wexler and the news is that he is not sure how he came to the reference that the 11th hole was based upon Mackenzie's Lido hole. he's going to check this out further and will get back to me.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Everyone should make the trip out to play the Blue 9 at Timber.  The Gibraltar hole is still there, still awe inspiring and those 9 holes include a number of gems.

Tom - After the Cobbs Creek crew completes our current project, TP is next on my hit list.

[Mark Bourgeois]

There must be pictures of the hole out there somewhere.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Picture of the current hole which doesn't do it justice:



Nice write up on the Blue 9 with some pictures:

http://www.golfonlongisland.com/teebox/2009/11/flyover-timber-point-blue-course.html


We have to get Bausch out there with a camera.

[Charlie Goerges]

[Jud_T]

Charlie,

Thanks for posting.  Amazing how much better the hole looks in your picture. 

[Frank Pont]

Charlie,

Thanks for posting.  Amazing how much better the hole looks in your picture.  

Guys, looking at these pictures it would not be very hard or expensive to bring back old hole 15.

FYI, the works at Broadstone, another Colt, were done for less that 15 k dollars per hole, ALL costs included.....

[Mark Bourgeois]

Looking at http://golfcoursehistories.com/Timber.html, I count ELEVEN holes resting in their original corridors, some retaining original bunkering and perhaps same / highly similar greens, such as the Gibraltar.

And I count SIXTEEN greens today located in the same spots as on the original 18. Not sure how many are the original or at least mostly-faithful green complexes.

Maybe for a start the original eleven could be restored?