Mayacama - how does it rank?

[JWL]

Joel,
I thought I did answer your inquiry concerning Mayacama being Jack's attempt at a minimalist design.  There never was any discussion regarding that idea.  Jack went throught the same process of design that he always goes through.  Jack never wants cart paths on any of his courses.  However, he does do what the owners desire in that situation.  At Mayacama, the owners wanted to have a walking golf experience.  Jack was more than happy to accomodate.
You seem convinced that the finished product at Mayacama would have looked like the courses you mentioned, if not for the developer dictating otherwise.  I don't think it would have worked out that way, personally.  Regardless, Jack does try to design course types that the owner requests.  He will always make his opinion known, but ultimately if the owner wants something like cart paths, stone walls, waterfalls, etc., Jack will probably allow it, unless it just destroys the "ambience" he has tried to create.  Jack rarely wants any of the bells and whistles that developers think they must have.
From your comments regarding Mayacama, it didn't sound like you were very fond of it.  Perhaps I read your post incorrectly.  However, it doesn't matter, all of us have our opinions on a variety of courses.  For example, I think Olympic Club is the most overrated course in America.  But, that' just me.
I would still like to hear your comments on specific holes that you offered to discuss.  You felt that some holes at Mayacama "didn't fit and others we had to work at it".  Please let me know which ones, from your perspective, gave you this impression.  Thanks for your input.

[Joel_Stewart]

For example, I think Olympic Club is the most overrated course in America.  But, that' just me.

Now you are trying to pick a fight

I'll email you directly.

Joel

[Jonathan Cummings]

Joel - maybe Mayacama is a good example of how the rating of categories (DIGEST) as opposed to the rating of the golf course (GOLFWEEK) is not a good approach in determining relative rankings.  JC

[JWL]

Joel,
Not at all!    Can I take that to mean that Olympic is one of your favorites, or that you are a member there?LOL

[Joel_Stewart]

Can I take that to mean that Olympic is one of your favorites, or that you are a member there?

Jim:  Correct on both!

Jonathan:

Maybe.  The GD list would have Mayacama 4th best modern in California and I would bet that the numbers are very very close.  Personally, and we have discussed this many times on this site, some of these new courses tend to get many votes in the begining and then taper off as time goes by.  The test will be to see if Mayacama holds up over the next 2 to 4 years.

[kurt bowman]

 I would like to address several topics on this thread which I may be able to bring some light to since I was on sight every day during the construction of Mayacama. The slope rating which most agree is unusually high was rated prior to the course opening and the native areas were seeded with an erosion control mix. Marc Logan the grow in superintendent/ now consultant chose a blend with several large annual grasses that would establish quickly, then die the next season. The course was essentially a target/desert style course until the native areas thinned. Hopefully they are somewhat payable now. The criticism of three and five being similar par 3's is fair, but #3 was intended to be 15 yards shorter, however the ncga rated the third hole from the back of the tee which made it about the same distance as #5, and if you build a back tee, Jack will play it in the grand opening. I believe he hit the same iron at 3, and 5.

The golf course does have cartpaths around nearly all greens and tees, some double as driveways to casitas, but most are out of sight.

Joel- If Mayacama rates 5.5 on the Doak scale I will take that as a compliment. I may be mistaken but in order to rate higher than that you have

a. Have Tom Doak design your golf course, I know all of his are 10's.

b. The golf course designed by Pete Dye (with Tom Doak on the construction crew during his formative years.)

c. Be a dead architect. ex. Raynor, Tillinghast.

Also I was lucky enough to play Olympic Lake while living in Northern Cal, and my sentiments are nearly the same as JWL's. Although the views are terrific, and the hamburger on the hot dog bun was great! It is a mystery to me how Olympic is rated higher than SFGC which is far superior IMHO. If hope you are also a member at SFGC. Great track.

BK- Thanks for the nice comments.

[larry_munger]

OC is a really good solid test of golf, SFGC is a World top 25 experience. The difference between a Doak 8 and 9.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well, I just got done spending two hours photo-editing images from Jim Lipe specifically for this thread, and then go on-line to post them, only to see I'm being torn apart by my dear friend and mentor, Dr. Bradley Klein!

I have to say that if I was in fact "biased" against big name architects, I have a funny way of showing it seeing that I have been raving to Jim about how good the course looks! Jeez Brad! Please tell me your actually reading my one previous contribution to this thread and not judging it as I preportedly do golf courses!

Brad, I think it would be best to take this Golfweek business offline--as it should be, and I apologize if my one small opinion was out of line for being on-line. It wasn't meant to be offensive. It was just an opinion.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Various Before and After shots from JWL of Mayacama. Thanks Jim. We enjoy your particpation!



Hole #1




Hole #2




Hole#5





Hole #6



Hole #17




Hole #18

[David Wigler]

Great pictures Tommy.  Now the rest of the country can see why Huckaby and I liked this place so much!

[JakaB]

David,

Would it be wrong to say this course is to Olympic what Dan Quayle was to John Kennedy.  

[David Wigler]

Barney,

Unfortunately, I do not get the reference.  My lasting image of Quayle is a passionate golfer who could not spell potato and my lasting image of Kennedy is a passionate golfer who liked to bang hookers, Hollywood starlets and anything else he could get.  They had similarities like the love of golf and differences like intelligence and a moral compass.  I do not agree with JWL as I really enjoy Olympic and think it is truly one of the finest courses in the country for testing every club in the bag and every shot conceivable.  Mayacama is some of the best work Nicklaus has ever done and well worth seeing as well.

Thanks for the explanation of slope.  Frankly though, I stick by what I said.  California is the only place in the country where slope is consistently different and always higher.  Put Mayacama in Michigan and it is a 73.0 - 135.

[Mike Benham]

Tommy - thanks for the pics ...

Has any of the NorCal contingent played Jack's first course in the Bay Area, Ruby Hill?

The 18th green/bunker complex at Mayacama is strikingly similar (from fairway to the green) to the 18th at Ruby Hill (except the lake is on the left).  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

#10

#14

#15


#16

[Brad Klein]

Joel, your example of Golf Digest's "best new" listings is far from conclusive. If Shark's Tooth, with five or six really fine holes and about three absolute clunkers, can finish above Mayacama, then they are smoking some weird orchids down there in the Florida Panhandle.

Tommy, I think I was being pretty good natured about chiding you in the above post and hardly attacked you. Besides, a thick skin is needed in this business. You should find out what it's like to be threatened with lawsuits and advertising boycotts for what you write (not that I care about the latter). If you think that stuff I wrote is worth "stepping outside" for, imagine how some of the architects must feel when they read some of the scatching criticism of their work on this site.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Oh so true........