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Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2012, 11:30:46 AM »
The original Dell hole was a par 4? I had always thought it was a par 3, but I'm not sure why.

Bob Lang might be half visionary and half dope, but he deserves a lot of credit. He set a really lofty goal and pulled it off. We'll never know if Erin Hills would have gotten an Amateur and an Open if he hadn't made the changes he did, but it's getting one now. Personally, I don't think we'd have seen a US Open with a Dell approach.

My guess is that Erin Hills becomes a regular Open host. It just has so much flexibility and elasticity and fantastic contours for viewing the golf as a spectator, the USGA will love the setup options it gives them.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2012, 11:34:18 AM »
Jason:

The Dell was a par 3.  The article doesn't do a great job of describing the change in that section of the course.  The Dell hole was essentially combined with the par 4 that followed it to create a par 5. 

"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2012, 11:38:21 AM »
Thanks Howard. It is interesting that it was not the USGA that wanted to get rid of the blind shots in particular the Dell hole. I think the USGA suggestions seemed fairly reasonable. The second green is a small target for a shot that is mostly blind. I was somehwat lamenting the fact that I missed the Dell & Biarritz holes, but it sounds as if the Biarittz was a little of a nightmare. I think there are a lot of bunkers there that really do not affect play, but not nearly as many as say Whistling Straits or Arcadia Bluffs. I certainly got a bit of minimalistic feel to the course (with the exception of the hikes up the tees).

Nigel:

This is partly speculation, but it's pretty informed speculation, based on countless column inches of stories I've read about Erin Hills (as someone who lives about an hour from the course). I think the USGA has had considerable input into the changes at EH, and to the extent that included eliminating blind shots (the Dell, but also the denuded esker on the 17th fairway, and several others), it's been done with the tacit or explicit approval of the USGA. There hasn't been much done to that course, in terms of its current iteration, that hasn't involved the USGA, and in particular Mike Davis. A little-known but important fact in all of this is that Bob Lang, the original owner and developer of the course, wanted the course to host the US Open; that was his goal from the very start, when the site was nothing more than rolling farmland covered with trees.

In particular, I think Davis and the USGA weren't keen on the idea of back-to-back par 3s on the front nine (the original routing had the long uphill par 3 #6 followed by the funky, blind -- and not that difficult -- #7 Dell hole), followed by a fairly conventional par 4 #8 and the closing par 4 #9 (now the 8th hole, and a very good hole, IMO). The original routing (not the very first, but the one first played in 2007), had one par 5 on the front nine, three par 5s on the back nine, back-to-back par 3s on the front nine, an over-the-top (600+ yards) par 5 10th hole with a Biarritz green, and a few other quirks. My belief is that while Davis loved the site (always has, from the first day he visited it), he viewed the course as too odd and disjointed, and too unconventional -- for something that one day might host a US Open. The course as now presented is clearly more "conventional" than its first iteration, and I think lots of folks who've played it from the beginning view it as a better course.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2012, 11:42:35 AM »
The original Dell hole was a par 4? I had always thought it was a par 3, but I'm not sure why.

Bob Lang might be half visionary and half dope, but he deserves a lot of credit. He set a really lofty goal and pulled it off. We'll never know if Erin Hills would have gotten an Amateur and an Open if he hadn't made the changes he did, but it's getting one now. Personally, I don't think we'd have seen a US Open with a Dell approach.


Before we take all that we read in a golf magazine as gospel please take into consideration that Matt Ginella is a protégée of Ron Whitten. It does not surprise me that Matt builds Ron up to be a hero in this mess. Bob Lang is a Green Beret so you can call him whatever names you choose. Let's just try to show the man the respect he has earned.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2012, 11:51:18 AM »
John:

I think Jason's got it about right -- Lang pretty much fits the stereotype of the crazy visionary, and those folks often accomplish big things, but at a cost. Anyone who saw first-hand the potential of this course -- displayed during last year's US Amateur, when it played firmer and faster than most of the Scottish links I played -- knows that Lang was on to something.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2012, 12:29:39 PM »
Don't get me wrong. I don't think Lang could have accomplished his goal of hosting an Open had he listened to everyone advising him. There's something inspiring about the story of that man and his course. But he also almost went broke in the process and had to get out of the course before securing the goal he had pursued. I hope he still got all the satisfaction of knowing that his work led to this point, even if he won't be there to reap all the rewards himself.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2012, 12:56:55 PM »
Jason I understood your comment. I actually think it was mostly a complimentary statement. The word dope could be replaced with foolhardy I think. I love golf, but to think someone could go broke bc of it is painful to me. Hats off to him because I loved his course.

Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2012, 01:52:08 PM »

Wow, Mike, didn't we play Erin together? Me for free off your coupon nonetheless?  How many times have you played there and is it really better now than then?

Btw:  I counted that 2 on 9.  It was the only way I could break 80.

Yes, John we did play together. I remember you being irritated over the bye hole 2 and wether it counted or not. That was funny, I thought. I was never a big fan of the 9th. To me it looks like a gimmick hole to settle bets after a round. Oh wait, thats what it is.

I have played it 4-5 times since then. It's much better than the original, and I have heard more changes coming.


Mike McGuire

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2012, 08:05:31 PM »
A look of the fescue from EH last Sunday.

Yes, this drive did travel considerably further than mine.

« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 08:07:13 PM by Mike McGuire »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2012, 10:42:32 AM »
I don't chime in on Erin Hills much, because anything I say about it is taken as sour grapes.  So, I'll just ask a question:

Many posters here defend the idea that golf courses should be tinkered with and improved upon over time, and praise a place like Erin Hills that keep making refinements such as described above.  But, is this really such a great process, if it winds up bankrupting the original owner, and you can barely recognize the finished product from the original course?  Shouldn't they have gotten it closer to right to begin with?

Note:  It's possible they didn't build the current course at first blush because the owner and the architect(s) and the design consultant never agreed on what they were trying to do.  And is THAT the best way to create a great course?

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2012, 11:01:33 AM »
Tom:

Can you build a great golf course -- in the current era of unrestricted technology and today's bomb-it players -- if your goal is to host the U.S. Open? You have said that you were reluctant to take up Lang on the course because he wanted something that could be stretched to near-8,000 yards.

My own two thoughts about Lang: 1) He was a very good businessman before moving into golf. Afterwards -- not so much. Mike Keiser, for one, strikes me as a much better businessman when it comes to golf than Lang; 2) He had a great piece of property and didn't know quite what to do with it. He was sold on the idea of an ultra-minimalist golf course (of the kind Whitten in particular wanted), but eventually decided having a course that could be selected by the USGA for the US Open was more important. Thus the tinkering and changes.

One more note: I think the "barely recognize" statement is a bit over the top. What's changed more: EH today vs. 2007, or Merion East today (in preparation for next year's US Open) compared to Merion circa 1971? I'm not sure the 2nd hole or 12th green at Merion is any less changed than, say, the 5th hole or 2nd green at EH.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2012, 11:38:09 AM »
I wonder if EH in its conception from the gorgeous land parcel it was, and the dream in Mr Lang's mind, became a series of too many cooks stirring the pot, due to all of its idealism.  In that I mean that a gentleman like Ron Whitten, and an alliance with Dr. Hurdzan and his associate Fry, got carried away by their own idealism to build that once in a lifetime course on a great piece of land and hit all the ideal themes, including the fatal flaw (IMHO) the notion of also being grand enough to host a USGA Open.  The ideal of gently laying a course of architectural brilliance on a nearly undisturbed topography is in deed an 'ideal'.  In practicality, even in the sand hills, when the terrain is just a tad too varied and severe in places, it forces quirky golf.  Combine that with the near antithesis of Dr Hurdzan the 'man who wrote the book' on golf course architecture as a construction manual, and those two ideals of a course lightly tread upon the lovely land, and the competence to 'construct' a golf course, seems out of natural order.  Add to Whitten and Hurdzan's golf course architecture knowledge, Mr Lang's ideals and goals, and in a way, it is a case of too much in the recipe and somethiing fails in the execution.

I strongly feel that #2 and #10 were more the result of the 'armchair architect's' overthoughtout passion that would come out in the annual armchair architect contest, where brilliant but overthought elaborate design ideas go too far and the result is quirk and extreme but not really desirable playing qualities in the actual game played in reality.  That turtle top green from mostly blind LZs (except the far left long) yet even if not blind, too small of a turtle top was dopey, IMHO.  Memorable?  Yes.  The same with #10.  An armchair architects wet dream, but what was there to play in reality was too quirky and over the top.  It was made hard by the length to address the conventional wisdom of length needed to challenge the top players, and too severe of terrain and too much to work with for the armchair architect, brainstorm. 

At this point I don't think it is telling tales out of school to say that one individual involved with the construction could see it was becoming a 'frankenstein monster' in severity and beyond good golf sense, by a person who is reported to have among the best and proven 'good golf sense'.  That person reportedly didn't want the work he was involved with to be attributed to him.  For who that person is, that says pretty much all I needed to know from the git-go. 

All this worked against Mr Lang's interests, IMHO.  In making minimalism for minimalisms sake, and trying to cook too much ideal like a great natural course on a great piece of land + a top USGA type competition venue, is stirring in too much idealism.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2012, 11:43:43 AM »
Tom, I would think that Erin Hills would be the model on how not to build a golf course from a business standpoint. Having said that I feel as if the course itself as it is today (when I played it last week) is actually quite good. Is it great? I would not go that far. I think the ultimate example of tinkering with a course without regards to expense would be Augusta National. I think the majority around this website would make the contention that they have actually not improved the course. At the very least Erin Hills has improved their course with this expenditure.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2012, 11:49:13 AM »
We need to get past this notion that shutting up the critics is an improvement.

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2012, 12:32:04 PM »
John I was just saying that from my own perspective based on what I had read, and what I had experienced there was an improvement in my own opinion.

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2012, 08:45:14 PM »
I don't think anything about the construction process of Erin Hills should be emulated. I'm not sure they had "too many cooks in the kitchen." Pebble Beach and Pine Valley also had a lot of cooks involved in their evolution, and it worked out pretty well for them. I do think, though, that Erin Hills suffered from conflicting visions: an owner that wanted a US Open test, a consultant that wanted the pinnacle of minimalism, and a design team whose philosophy I'm still not sure about...

Once Bob Lang decided to make his goal the only goal, the course reached a more cohesive form. Whether we consider it good, great, or a mess, it's hard to argue that it won't do exactly what it was intended to do: challenge the world's best players in a way that few courses can.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Link Walsh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2012, 09:00:44 PM »
I played there in late July after about a 3 year absence.  I was very impressed with the changes, especially the fescue in between holes.  I was a little worried about the perceived over bunkering in between my rounds there, but it wasn't really an issue.  Getting rid of the biarritz was a definite positive.  10 is a good hole now.   

The course was firm and fast (thanks to the drought).  Even though it was close to 100 degrees when I finished, a breeze kept me from passing out ;D 

Great fun.  Just wish I lived closer...

Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2012, 10:05:30 AM »
What is the consensus of Hurzdan and Fry? What are their top courses? Calusa Pines? Living where I do I actually have played several of their courses, but I do not have a very good handle on their style/tendencies yet (Partly because the courses are all daily fee courses)

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2012, 10:53:25 AM »
What is the consensus of Hurzdan and Fry? What are their top courses? Calusa Pines? Living where I do I actually have played several of their courses, but I do not have a very good handle on their style/tendencies yet (Partly because the courses are all daily fee courses)


At least according to the Golfweek rankings...

25. Calusa Pines Golf Club 7.61
(31, p) Naples, Fla.
2001, Dana Fry, Michael Hurdzan

65. *Shelter Harbor Golf Club 7.09
(NR, p) Westerly, R.I.
2005, Dana Fry, Michael Hurdzan

160. (173) Hamilton Farm
Gladstone, N.J., 2002
Dana Fry, Michael Hurdzan
Private
6.59

184. (189) Erin Hills GC
Hartford, Wis., 2006
Dana Fry, Michael Hurdzan
Daily Fee
6.49

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/13/2012-golfweeks-best-modern-courses/?RANKINGS-GolfweeksBest

"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Erin Hills
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2012, 12:14:33 PM »
I also haven't played any of H&F's courses (other than EH), so a consensus of their work as a point of GCA critical acclaim is beyond me.  I do know there is a consensus that Dr. Mike Hurdzan has added greatly to the general body of knowledge of many interested people about golf architecture and construction methods via his books and writing articles.  He was a regular at the GCSAA seminars and due to his turf science background and experiences both on the turf side and in the design and construction side, he has educated many people who are key players in the industry.  Along with his military background (attained rank of Col. I think) he is an impressive teacher, leader, and competent individual.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

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