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Mark Saltzman

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Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« on: August 26, 2012, 09:39:00 PM »


Wyndance Golf Club is the only Norman design in Canada and opened to considerable fanfare in 2007.  Since then the course has been recognized by Score Golf Magazine as the 73rd best golf course in Canada (http://scoregolf.com/rankings/top100/top-100-golf-courses-in-canada-2012).  I think Score has Wyndance rated about right; I place it 35th in Ontario (http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.ca/2012/07/my-ontario-top-50-golf-courses.html).

Much of the golf course is routed around an old gravel pit site, though only a handful of holes interact with the quarry and arguably none of them in an interesting way. 

Fairway grass is everywhere at Wyndance, a major plus on a course with many flaws.  Run-offs around the green, combined with the firm conditions that are the norm at Wyndance, mean that recovery shots around the green are interesting and difficult.

Norman's misuse of bunkers is predictable and uninteresting.  A complete lack of restraint almost ruins what should be a very good golf course.  Enjoy the photos.

The course stretches to near 7,500 yards from the Shark tees, but this photo tour will be from the 6,632 yard blue tees.

Scorecard Information and Routing from http://wyndance.clublink.ca/Default.aspx?p=DynamicModule&pageid=325382&ssid=219668&vnf=1




The long par-5 1st is a perfect microcosm for the golf course, flaws and all.  The 1st fairway has plenty of width, though poorly placed bunkers are entirely penal in nature and there is no such thing as a preferred line off the tee.  The approach shows Norman's lack of restraint as the green is guarded on one side by water, on another by a deep nest of bunkers, and long and left by a massive and intimidating run-off.






The second hole is one that has been debated before on Golf Club Atlas, though I don't think a consensus was reached.  A longer forced-carry guards the less than ideal line.  A deep centreline bunker must be avoided to leave a short-iron into this plateau green protected short by deep bunkers and long/left by another huge run-off.




Approach from left




The 3rd is a decent though forgettable par-3 with a massive green and some broad internal contours




The anti-strategic features continue at the 4th as this diagonal forced-carry protects the less than ideal line.




Playing away from the forced carry leaves the preferred line into this wildly shaped and contoured triple-tiered green




The long par-4 5th is nearly a very good hole, though the anti-strategic bunkering on the right side of the fairway frustrates me.  The golfer must carefully judge the carry over the waste area on the left as the approach from the left is considerably simpler.




Approaching from the right (bailed-out tee shot) requires precision to avoid this deep road hole-esque bunker and to find a green that is at an angle.




The 6th is another long par-4 and plays in the same direction as the 5th and is completely mis-uses the centreline hazard.  The fairway left of the trees is so small that no golfer will purposely play there and the bunkers benched into the hill on the right are an anti-strategic, eye-candyish mess.




At the 7th Norman again misuses the quarry.  Rather than uses the natural feature on the left in a meaningful way, it is entirely penal in nature.






The long par-3 8th is a very pretty golf hole and one on which missing anywhere is not an option (though those bunkers on the left may save more shots than they penalize).






The 9th is one of the best holes on the golf course.  Strategic(!!) bunkering on the left must be flirted with to leave a reasonable angle of approach as a reverse-cambre fairway will kick many tee shots too far to the right.




The 9th green is angled, contoured and extremely narrow.  A bunker of massive scale protects the right side of the green, making the green feel smaller than it is, and pushing golfers to the left where acres of fairway green lay (and from where the green tilts away).




The back-nine starts with the least interesting stretch of holes on the course.  The 10th is a straightaway par-4 of little interest.  The approach.




The 11th is an ill-conceived short par-4.  In theory, the golfer has the option of 1) playing short of the centre-line bunker; 2) playing left of the centreline bunker to the strip of fairway that extends to near even with the green; 3) playing over the bunker on the right to an upper portion of fairway.  Unfortunately, only option 1 is practical and the only option I've ever seen anyone take.




Most golfers will be left with this approach.  A pretty cool skyline green, though a rather dull hole.




The 12th hole plays alongside the quarry and is a very intimidating par-3.  This view from the Shark tees is butt-puckering.




Bailing out left is an option though the recovery from fairway cut is not simple.





Like the 9th, the 13th lacks the drama of the quarry holes but is of strategic interest.




The 14th plays into the quarry and is a reachable par-5 around a lake.  Bunkering on the tee shot is RTJ-esque.




Golfers considering reaching the green in two must be committed to their shot as bailing out to the right will leave a very difficult recovery from a series of bunkers.




14th green from behind:




The 15th plays in the opposite direction to the 14th and often plays into the wind.  This very long par-4 will play closer to a par-5 for many.  The 15th green is one of only a handful that requires an aerial approach; a bizarre choice given the length of the hole.




The 16th is another dramatic quarry hole, requiring two forced carries over out-of-bounds.  Again, the use of the quarry while thrilling is uninteresting in the long-run.








Another difficult par-3 at the 17th:




The quarry must be played over one last time at the 18th.  Anti-strategic bunkering all the way down the right side of the fairway is predictable.




This massive bunker/blowout/whatever! right of the fairway is amazing and would easily dwarf the blowout left of the 4th at Sand Hills.  The gentleman in the picture helps to give a sense of scale.




The 18th from behind:



Ronald Montesano

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2012, 11:07:15 PM »
HEY, it's the only Norman design in Canada because Grand Niagara went with the Rees course first, then the bottom fell out of the market and the planned Norman course never broke ground. That would have been an interesting one-two punch, huh?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2012, 11:26:21 PM »
A) What would you have him do with the quarry on #7?

B) The blowout bunker on 18 doesnt' come into play, does it?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2012, 11:39:24 PM »
A) What would you have him do with the quarry on #7?

Ron, oh I don't make suggestions, I just criticize.

B) The blowout bunker on 18 doesnt' come into play, does it?

Ask the guy looking for his ball in there.

Matthew Petersen

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2012, 01:56:49 PM »
HEY, it's the only Norman design in Canada because Grand Niagara went with the Rees course first, then the bottom fell out of the market and the planned Norman course never broke ground. That would have been an interesting one-two punch, huh?

That was also the original plan at Qunitero, a (formerly) private club in Peoria, AZ. They built the Rees course (aka, the "Founders" course) and for years their web site was suggesting a Norman-design was right around the corner ... but it has not and almost certainly never will be built. Heck, they haven't even built a real clubhouse out there yet.

Sean_A

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2012, 04:18:38 AM »
Mark

Thanks for the tour.  The site looks really interesting, though I would agree with you that there looks to be a lot of nearly very good holes.  I also notice of plethora of raised greens, many with bunkers dug into the banks - maybe a bit ott?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

jeffwarne

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2012, 08:14:24 AM »
I'm at a complete loss as to why 18, with the massive natural sand features in the foreground and background, would need those additional mediocre bunkers up the fairway right side.

what are they protecting? the poor angle from the right blowout?
Sad to see how many great sites are wasted and how much artificial bunkering is overused and is this case detracts form the incredible natural features provided.
 but I guess the developer enjoyed his 20 minutes hobnobbing with the shark.....
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Bryan Izatt

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!!
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2012, 07:10:15 PM »
Mark,

I think you are being a little over-critical given you think it's a top course in Canada.  I'll debate some of the holes with you when I get back.

Sean,

I'm not sure that the site was all that good.  The quarry was basically a rectangular hole in the ground with 40 foot high walls and a flatish bottom.  The holes that play into and out of the old quarry are basically fill that sloped the wall down into the pit.  Those two holes are good holes in my opinion.  The rest of the bottom of the quarry is a par 3 course.  I don't think they gave the prime pit bottom over to a par 3 course because they could have created spectacular regular holes there.

The bunkering is probably a bit OTT for the average golfer.  Most every one who plays there once is sure to want to avoid the bunkers at all costs in the future.  On many of the holes, if you play the right angle you can have an approach shot to the green that's unimpeded.

Jeff,

On 18 the sand feature you see on the left is actually the pit.  The hole is routed along the pit wall from tee to green.  Think of it as the 18th at Sawgrass with a pit instead of a pond.  The bunkers up the right side are either aiming bunkers or saving bunkers.  the big "blowout to the right is actully just a place they mined sand for the course.  Despite Mark's experience it's really not in play.  It's way to far to impact the drive and way too short to impact the second.  And, the hole almost never plays into the wind.

I don't think that Wyndance was a great natural site nor that it's been msused.  It was probably a hard site where they routed holes around the perimeter of the quarry because there weren't a whole lot of other interesting options.

How did you know there was a plaque in the dead center of the fairway, 300 yards out, celebrating Greg's opening tee shot.  :)

It won't ever be confused with Silloth or Formby, but it's in different time and place.

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Wyndance Golf Club (Greg Norman) - A Photo Tour!!! New
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2012, 08:12:00 PM »
I have some observations.  To qualify, I do not have a lot of experience with Norman courses, besides The Point Lake and Golf Club in Mooresville, NC, which is more of an upscale-housing development course, and likely designed for that level of play, not necessarily championships.  Which is fine.  


1.  To echo Mark, the 1st looks more penal than strategic; it appears, from the pictures, there is a preferred location to lay up to, and other layups outside of this area will have an odd angle to the green.  I also notice that the green appears rather small and will repel anything not hit perfectly-left, into water, and right or long, a good distance away and well below the green.  

2.  It appears the green could be angled with its long axis more towards the preferred line, it doesn't seem like there is any reward for taking the heroic carry, and the preferred landing area

4.  Similar to #2, it seems to present itself as a)tee shot, hit it straight and to here.  b)second shot, hit it straight to here.  Some eye candy, but no real use of the quarry as a strategic feature.  

16.  Seems like an uphill, inland version of #18 at Harbor Town.  In place of marsh, there is quarry.  However, is that a shared green behind it?  That's kind of neat. 

Overall, it seems like it coul dhave been done a little differently, but not knowing what the developer's mandates were, who is to say?  This is a private club, or a daily fee/resort? 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 08:19:08 PM by Doug Braunsdorf »
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."