Firestone and the Evolution of the Pro Game

[SL_Solow]

People are missing Pat's point, methinks.  It is not the low scores that are the issue.  Suggesting that 66 should be the new norm ignores the fact that the basic challenge of the game has been changed at the elite level.  Previously, the hazards were in play for even the best players.  Longer approach clubs were required to reach greens on long par 4's as well as short par 5's. Itwas harder to hit the ball long and straight even for very good athletes and long hitters like, for example, Mile Souchak who was strong enough to jhave played college football.  But, as Pat noted, most fairway hazrds are carried with ease and the long iron/hybrid approach is a thing of the past.  Accordingly the game is less intersting to watch.  For thiose of us who are not elite, the courses remain tough enough.  But the test has been changed and reduced gor the better player.  While they continue to try and shoot the lowest score,and while that remains interesting, there is far less variety in the challenge than existed previously.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shelly,

You get it.

Brent doesn't.

It's not about score, it's about continuing to interface with the architectural features, not ignore them like the Maginot Line.

[SL_Solow]

Barney;  The issue isn't fairness at all.  That is a straw man.  It is a question of what makes a more intersting game and what would betteremphasize the challenge created by good architecture.  It also impacts on preserving the relevance of great courses and reducing the amount of land needed to build new courses.  The game will always reward the best players and rub of the green will always bother a certain segment of the golfing population.

[Garland Bayley]

This notion of making the ball more fair is seeded in the same furrow as the political correctness that has ruined professional wrestling.  

Well, since that last iteration of golf ball change made the ball more fair, why aren't you up in arms?

[Phil Benedict]

Another issue for me is you can no longer compare players of different eras.  It's like baseball because of steroids.  Statistically Barry Bonds was a lot better than Mickey Mantle, but the difference can be explained by the different ways they medicated.  Similarly, you can't compare the way Oostheizen plays golf to the way his countryman, Gary Player, played the game.  With this equipment, Oosty is playing a different game.  It's unlikely Oosty will come close to Player's record but his game is so much bigger I question whether Player (of Trevino of Arnie) couild cut it in the modern game.

[JMEvensky]

Another issue for me is you can no longer compare players of different eras.  It's like baseball because of steroids.  Statistically Barry Bonds was a lot better than Mickey Mantle, but the difference can be explained by the different ways they medicated.  Similarly, you can't compare the way Oostheizen plays golf to the way his countryman, Gary Player, played the game.  With this equipment, Oosty is playing a different game.  It's unlikely Oosty will come close to Player's record but his game is so much bigger I question whether Player could cut (of Trevino of Arnie) couild cut it in the modern game.

This,to me,is the strongest argument in favor of rolling back equipment.And it's also why baseball keeps its core believers so interested.

I think AP et al would have adjusted just fine--but,instead of speculating, I'd rather be able to compare them with similar equipment and on similar golf courses.

[Pat Burke]

There's a simpler answer:  Just let a long course be 7000 yards, let guys shoot lower scores, red numbers flow and 66 becomes the new 72.  Honestly, what' s the harm in that? 

Exactly. That's the option never discussed.

The problem being, it offends those whose sense of what clubhead speed means and how a golf ball flies through the air is fixated on or about Masters weekend in 1986. It's basically a wish for highly trained, elite athletes to be forced to play the same game that a bunch of schlubby white boys were playing more than two generations ago.

More nonsensical hyperbole. Tiger Woods is not nor has ever been a "schlubby white boy". Tiger Woods came to the world of professional tour golf before there was a ball that let low talent smashers become predominate on tour.

If your so called "elite athletes" can't compete with the ball Tiger learned to play and dominate with, then perhaps elite is not the right adjective.

Tiger's most dominating performances, began when he switched to the new solid core Bridgestone/Nike.
His first Masters was with the wound ball, but he lapped people with the "new" technology.

To again state my position, I am not in favor of different balls for the highest levels of competitive golf.
Would not be against an overall reduction in the ODS for all, but believe it would further hurt the business
of golf.  Not the game of golf, the business of golf.

[Pat Burke]

Brent,

What are the purpose/function of fairway bunkers ?

to provide a sheltered resting place for the herds in foul weather?

[Garland Bayley]

...  It's unlikely Oosty will come close to Player's record but his game is so much bigger I question whether Player (of Trevino of Arnie) couild cut it in the modern game.

If you are going to ask that question, why aren't you asking the question whether Oosty could cut it with Player's equipment in his age?

[Josh Tarble]

Would not be against an overall reduction in the ODS for all, but believe it would further hurt the business
of golf.  Not the game of golf, the business of golf.

That is the key statement.

I've thought a lot about this recently...the ideal situation would be having two sets of rules, one for the professional game, one for the amateurs.  However, I think that would take away one great thing about golf and that's the ability to play the exact same course, clubs and equipment as the pros.  In basketball you'd never be able to guard Kobe, in baseball you'd never be able hit a Nolan Ryan fastball but you can go out and play to the exact specifications of next weeks champion at Kiawah.

Regardless of what players say, they will always want to play what the pros are playing.  I have no doubt that there would be a group of people who would pay extra to play a "pro-level" ball, even if the performance is less.

[Phil Benedict]

...  It's unlikely Oosty will come close to Player's record but his game is so much bigger I question whether Player (of Trevino of Arnie) couild cut it in the modern game.

If you are going to ask that question, why aren't you asking the question whether Oosty could cut it with Player's equipment in his age?

Garland,

I think that's a good question.  I'm pretty sure that modern basketball and football players would dominate old time players because they are obviously faster and bigger.  Not so sure with golf but it's certainly possible.  Maybe if you transport Oosty back to the 60's he would dominate even with old technology.  He's not much taller than Player but he generates more speed.

The problem is there is no way of knowing how he (or Rory, who is of similar stature) would play with pre-modern equipment. Could they swing with such abandon with balls that curve more and clubs with smaller sweet spots?  

[Garland Bayley]

...  It's unlikely Oosty will come close to Player's record but his game is so much bigger I question whether Player (of Trevino of Arnie) couild cut it in the modern game.

If you are going to ask that question, why aren't you asking the question whether Oosty could cut it with Player's equipment in his age?

Garland,

I think that's a good question.  I'm pretty sure that modern basketball and football players would dominate old time players because they are obviously faster and bigger.  Not so sure with golf but it's certainly possible.  Maybe if you transport Oosty back to the 60's he would dominate even with old technology.  He's not much taller than Player but he generates more speed.

The problem is there is no way of knowing how he (or Rory, who is of similar stature) would play with pre-modern equipment. Could they swing with such abandon with balls that curve more and clubs with smaller sweet spots?  

That's just it Phil. Unless your name is Jack Nicklaus with the old ball, speed kills. Do you want a game of speed, or a game of skill. Any young buck has speed. I had lots of speed when I was young, but I was not Jack Nicklaus. Heck, I wasn't even Jack Benny.

Besides, Player could bench press Oosty.

[SL_Solow]

Not to mention that the clubs were shorter and heavier.  There are many reports of modern players testing some of Hogan's clubs and finding them to be extraordinarily difficult to hit.

[Sean_A]

More bitching from the back seats.  Bloody hell, when are one of you guys going to do something - even if its on a personal level such as giving up the equipment you despise?  If its the pros you are worried about - don't watch and they won't get paid as much.  Maybe they will eventually figure out their style of golf is not terribly entertaining.  Whatever you decide to do, stop whinging and get on with living.

Ciao

[Garland Bayley]

There's a simpler answer:  Just let a long course be 7000 yards, let guys shoot lower scores, red numbers flow and 66 becomes the new 72.  Honestly, what' s the harm in that? 

Exactly. That's the option never discussed.

The problem being, it offends those whose sense of what clubhead speed means and how a golf ball flies through the air is fixated on or about Masters weekend in 1986. It's basically a wish for highly trained, elite athletes to be forced to play the same game that a bunch of schlubby white boys were playing more than two generations ago.

More nonsensical hyperbole. Tiger Woods is not nor has ever been a "schlubby white boy". Tiger Woods came to the world of professional tour golf before there was a ball that let low talent smashers become predominate on tour.

If your so called "elite athletes" can't compete with the ball Tiger learned to play and dominate with, then perhaps elite is not the right adjective.

Tiger's most dominating performances, began when he switched to the new solid core Bridgestone/Nike.
His first Masters was with the wound ball, but he lapped people with the "new" technology.

To again state my position, I am not in favor of different balls for the highest levels of competitive golf.
Would not be against an overall reduction in the ODS for all, but believe it would further hurt the business
of golf.  Not the game of golf, the business of golf.

I doubt you are going to win any arguments saying Tiger would not have dominated if the ball had not changed.

Furthermore, the ODS is not the issue. The ODS was put in place in a reaction to a technology. The new technology is not the same technology that spawned the ODS. The USGA should regulate the technology that has created the current problem.

Finally, golf business is independent of a particular technological break through in balls and implements. Before somebody got the idea that they could make a lot of money fooling people into buying new equipment by saying they had better equipment, the golf business was just fine. If anything, it seems to me that the lack of credibility of the golf business is more likely to be a problem with the golf business. They have been selling pie in the sky for too long.

[Garland Bayley]

More bitching from the back seats.  Bloody hell, when are one of you guys going to do something - even if its on a personal level such as giving up the equipment you despise?  If its the pros you are worried about - don't watch and they won't get paid as much.  Maybe they will eventually figure out their style of golf is not terribly entertaining.  Whatever you decide to do, stop whinging and get on with living.

Ciao

Sean,

We are doing something. We are getting the word out for people to read and learn on our best conduit for soapboxing. As far as equipment goes, I play the balls I find. People stop losing wound balls a long time ago for me to find. I glue together drivers for $25 to $35 and go to golf courses and out hit people with much lower handicaps and much more expensive drivers. What more do you want from me?


Play it hole-by-hole