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Darren_Kilfara

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2003, 07:31:19 PM »
Darren,

Forgive me for I am the worst of all.  I am really dissapointed in myself for what I took away from this Open in regards to Olympia Fields and I blame only my own ignorance and sometimes weakness in following the party line.   I am also dissapointed that the people who understand architecture never took the time to evaluate the great features that I am sure exist at OF that tricked up 95% of the field.  But no this site took the same route as TV and the Chicago Tribune and only stated the obvious.  Even you DK..short of years but long on architectural experience never got past the obvious in your critique...we should be above the average and the mundane....we should shed light where the ignorant golfing masses tread.   Yes that Open was and should have been boring to the general public...Tiger didn't win or contest...but where was the architectural analysis that has found OF to be a great course for the last 75 years....or do we simply buy into the changes of culture and technology that makes great design moot...I know I did..and now two weeks removed I publicly state my shame.

Just thought I'd quickly answer this point, JakaB, by stating that not all posts or threads are meant to be fully "deep" in this sense. The Olympia Fields thread asked a simple question: should the US Open return to Olympia Fields? Note that the question was NOT "Is Olympia Fields a really good golf course?", which it may well be (in fact, I'm sure it is). I felt able to answer the former because of what I saw on television, because I've watched many US Open broadcasts down the years and know what I like to see from afar on a US Open telecast, and because there are other courses I prefer (on television) to Olympia Fields already in the rota.

And one more thing: I sure as hell don't feel shame for having expressed my opinion! This is an internet discussion group, not a confessional or a Communist party meeting circa 1935. Try not to take things too serious, will ya'?

Cheers,
Darren

MargaretC

Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2003, 10:34:54 PM »
Distinguished Gentlemen:   ;)    

I'm so glad that I had the chance to stop back today to read the kind references by TimW, A_Clay_Man and TomH -- made my day, guys!    :-*

Tim, in response to your comment:  ...this being an international forum is one of my greatest concerns. Recently I received a lengthy private e mail from someone overseas that is extremely knowledgeable about golf architecture. He does feel, however, that the DG is a bit too clique-ish, American clique-ish that is, with all sorts of chatter about personal things that have little to do with golf architecture. He sees that as an impediment to attracting more international participaton.

As I mentioned previously, I can understand that that may be the perception of a "first time" or infrequent visitor to this DG.  Timing is everything.  I respect the opinion of the person you reference -- afterall, perception = reality to the person doing the perceiving.  That said, unless a post is specifically directed to me, it makes little sense (to me) to engage in that level of value-judging.  If a thread or post seems trite or rude, most persons will just scroll past until they find something of interest.  The "internal or participant policing" (for the lack of a better term) that I have observed on this DG has been generally effective, or at the least, has expressed a differing opinion regarding either the tone or content of a thread or post.  

IMHO, I'd rather participate in a DG that utilizes an informal approach of "policing" over an approach that "encourages" posts which are so "sanitized" that they appear to be written by a robot.  GCA is an artform.  Individuals who are interested in this art, aren't likely to be ambivalent.  They like what they like.  But even though an individual has an opinion, I think the primary reason they visit this DG is to learn more about something they love and, as such, they're open to differing perspectives (yes, sometimes receptive more than others).   ;)  

It makes little sense to me that someone would visit this site regularly out of some type of "evangelical zeal" to convert DG participants to his point of view.  That motivation would be transparent and unlikely to be successful.   ::)

Whether any DG is exclusive to the US or International in participation, existing social and cultural diversity combined with varying skills in expressing strong opinions provide a natural framework for misunderstandings to occur from time to time and I doubt if there is any approach or ground rules that can be realistically adopted to eliminate it.  Isn't that just part of life and everyday living?    

I'm blathering on and on and it occurs to me that "A_Clay_Man" said it well, ...there is no "we" here. I don't feel that statments about how "we" blasted someone or something is plausable since it is clearly in black and white, all individual's posts.

Sure, some threads may attract posts that appear to be skewed in a particular direction, but each post within a thread has an author.

I also doubt if there is any universally accepted understanding of what taking this DG to a "higher level" even means.  If we, humans, shared an absolute understanding of every word  spoken or written, spouses would always sleep in the same bed and one spouse would never banish the other to a couch because of something said.  I may not readily admit it as often as I should, but I'm just as capable as anyone to be a jerk, obtuse, insensitive, rude, obnoxious, condescending -- whatever offensive du jour behavior.  There's no halo over my head and experience tells me that I am in good company in this world.     :o

Tim, your comments are well-taken.  From my perspective, you and the vast majority of participants post comments if the tone or content of a thread appears inappropriate.  "Peer pressure" is generally effective and appreciated.

A forum representative of all shapes and sizes, etc., is educational, keeps the juices flowing, challenges the mind and makes life interesting -- even on those occasions wherein I have an urge to smack someone!    ;D





     

« Last Edit: July 01, 2003, 11:02:25 PM by MargaretC »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2003, 12:26:58 AM »
MargaretC:

Thanks for your comments. I agree that self policing is a better way to go and that generally speaking the tone of our discussion remains civil. It is worth noting that Jack Nicklaus is not exactly one of the favored architects here, but when his associate Jim Lipe has participated, he has received nothing but respect.

Now, what about taking our discussion to a higher level? I agree that we are not at a point where there is a consensus on what this means. But, I also believe it is a bit like self policing. That is to say we shouldn't wait for Ran to offer his views on what a "higher level" means. We should just move in that direction in the same way we've been successful eliminating most comments that are "personal attacks".

We accomplished that by simply telling people that personal attacks aren't welcome here. Why not simply work towards a definition of what a "higher level" means?

Tom Paul correctly points out that we still have way too small a group of regular contributors. We have a whole industry watching - according to industry friends I know - but very little industry participation. It seems like common sense to suggest that one of our long term goals should be to attract more industry folks to come on here. Yes, I know there is the problem of how to do it. But, for that I'd encourage us to think about Darren Kilfara's point about "good" good or bad course reviews.

I'm also hard pressed to understand why anyone would not want to see GCA attract more international participation. After all, there isn't a monopoly on good golf architecture in the United States. Attracting more international participation won't be any easier than attracting more industry participation, but I'm convinced we need to cut out some of our casual banter. Again, WE should do it; we shouldn't wait for Ran to tell us.
Tim Weiman

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2003, 12:44:25 AM »
RE Ran's course reviews:  A collection of Ran's reviews would surley rival "World Atlas of Golf".  With an introduction inspired by other features of this site, I think we would have the best mainstream architecture book ever.  Any chance of it happenning?

RE The discussion Group:  I think a good start to "improving" the forum would be to divide the group into two forums, one for architecture related discussion and one for all the other stuff.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2003, 08:22:27 AM »
GCA differs from anonymous chat rooms in a very big way.  The principals on GCA often personally know one another, play golf with one another, and frequently communicate privately.  I consider myself an occasional participant on GCA and yet I must know 50 people here.

With Ran's recent required login preventing anonymous posts, personal responsibility for postings has increased.  If a GCA poster says something disagreeable, that poster is going to get responses to which they defend.

You just don't get GCA posters, lurking, posting something outlandish, then heading for the hills.  You get that all the time at most other chat rooms.  

GCA has to be the most self-policed chat room out there.

JC

MargaretC

Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2003, 09:10:26 AM »
TimW:

Tom Paul correctly points out that we still have way too small a group of regular contributors.  We have a whole industry watching - according to industry friends I know - but very little industry participation....

You raise excellent points.  My initial reaction is that the spoken crux criticorum -- i.e., comments by some in the industry that this DG appears to be too clique-ish and engages in more chatter than substance, although a primary "issue" to some, is likely to be equal to the natural reticence to avoid criticism of one's art.

I can't imagine that every "Picasso" would logon to a DG and contribute to a thread that had the potential of being critical of his work.  I'm also not suggesting that anyone who prefers to avoid criticism of one's art has a character flaw.  To the contrary, if it is known that the industry is watching, -- that's a big compliment.

Creating a course design includes a certain amount of "local politics" via club committees, cost constraints, etc.  Industry professionals aren't likely to "expose" client mandates that resulted in some design features -- not if they want to keep working.   :o

You also commented ...there isn't a monopoly on good golf architecture in the United States. Attracting more international participation won't be any easier than attracting more industry participation...

I have never gotten the impression that persons on this DG think the US has a monopoly on good GCA.  If someone's exposure is limited to one country (regardless of the country), it's pretty hard to have a strong opinion about something he has never experienced.  The only other issue I can think of that may discourage International participants from posting here is language -- it's easier to read a second language than it is to write a second language.  Bright people know the importance of accurately articulating a position regardless of their native language.

"Chatter" is in the eye of the beholder.  Yes, it can appear to be "clique-ish," but for some, it generates esprit de corps in combination with the education of discussing and sharing information about a topic that's loved.

Again, as an "outsider," I think there are many, many more positives than negatives about this DG.  Something this good will naturally continue to get better and better via the commitment of it's diverse participants to a very interesting topic.  That's why I keep coming back.   ;)

If everyone liked the same flavor, Baskin & Robbins wouldn't bother to make 31.   ::)

THuckaby2

Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2003, 09:27:13 AM »
Margaret:

Your wisdom continues, thank you very much.  As you can likely tell Tim and I tend to disagree on the status and direction of this discussion group, but all I can say is I read your posts and find myself nodding in complete agreement.  The bottom line for me is that there are FAR more positives than negatives here, and I don't see the "act to be cleaned up" that Tim does.  But one way or the other, we all do enjoy this site and want it to continue and succeed, whatever that latter word implies.

Thanks again for the perspective.

TH

A_Clay_Man

Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2003, 09:49:14 AM »
Touching on the industy participants, or lack thereof, I have found outside this DG that some don't want to offend anybody by commenting on someone else's golf course. However, It doesn't stop them from commenting on others comments. Or so i'm told  ;D

This form of PC, is IMO better left out. But, that's me. Anyone not contributing on substance, is either insecure in their knowledge or has no insight into the particular subject. Either way, they can absorb and learn (hopefully) and maybe someday feel confident that their job will not be lost if they speakout on some item of minutia.

Hell. they may even end up getting a better job, just for speaking up.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2003, 10:12:43 AM »
MargaretC:

You raise several points where we are in agreement. First, we are a long way from every golf architecture Picasso joining our discussion group. Second, even if we are successful developing more industry participation, there will always be subject matter - I've recently called it "project management" or "project gossip" - industry folks can't discuss publicly. Third, I don't believe anyone here believes the US has monopoly on golf course architect. Rather, I believe the problem is that we have so little non American participation in our discussion group, especially so little European. Finally, the positives DO outweigh the negatives and GCA has come a long way establishing itself as the best golf architecture site on the Internet.

Nonetheless, I'm surprised anyone with a serious interest in golf architecture would not recognize Tom Paul's point that we still have too small a group of regular contributors. I'm also surprised that anyone with a serious interest in this subject would not have an interest in broader participation, especially golf industry and international folks.

What I'm hearing is that some people like the status quo. Okay, GCA can be lots of fun. But, when I think of golf architecture experiences I've had, many of the most enjoyable have involved meeting new people, meeting people overseas and meeting people with "inside" or extensive knowledge about a golf course or golf project. That's at the heart of why I believe we should attempt to take the discussion group to a "higher level" and why I believe attracting broader participation should be one of our goals.


Tim Weiman

MargaretC

Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2003, 10:18:16 AM »

Gentlemen, consider this:

Constructive Dissent -- the open expression of honest disagreement -- is vital to productive discussion and sound decision making.

Peter Drucker:  If you have quick consensus on an important matter, don't make the decision.  Acclamation means nobody has done the homework.  An open discussion uncovers what the objections are.  With genuine participation, a decision doesn't need to be sold.  Suggestions can be incorporated, objections addressed, and the decision itself becomes a commitment to action.

Constructive dissent differs from conflict insofar as in conflict, there's a tendancy for participants (all sides) to become self-righteous and discussions can veer from what is right to who is right.

Some persons may be reluctant to engage in constructive dissent from a negative history that makes the individual feel unsafe, culture in which it is considered impolitic or impolite, or just the simple lack of practice.

No one would visit and spend time reading this DG if it had no value.  Some are more comfortable "lurking," reading and learning while others prefer to engage in a dialogue or a "scrap" or two or twelve or...

Maybe occasional threads like this one will encourage the "lurkers" to jump in.  Remember, You can lead a horse to water... but, hey, if it doesn't drink, maybe it's just that it isn't thirsty.  A decision not to drink doesn't have to mean that the water is of questionable quality.   ???

Voila!  Everyone is on point!   ;D  ::)

Thanks, guys, you have been gracious to this "outsider" and I've enjoyed it!   :-*

THuckaby2

Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2003, 10:26:53 AM »
Tim:

I agree with every word you say.  But then again, I never have disagreed with any of that.

Margaret:  thanks again for the further wisdom.  Don't be a stranger.

TH
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 10:28:37 AM by Tom Huckaby »

A_Clay_Man

Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2003, 10:41:40 AM »
Because I believe in full disclosure (dilatante's luxury)...

I have no idea who this MargretC is, but, the first love of my life was a Margret C. known as Peggy.  ;D
« Last Edit: July 02, 2003, 10:42:17 AM by A_Clay_Man »

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Another perspective on Golfclubatlas.com
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2003, 11:17:30 AM »
 ;D

Human nature rules..  I can't help but ask, Margaret, are you in TEP's gene pool?

A_C_M .. I knew a Margaret called Peggy too.. she was a 8 handicap but whined if I didn't give her a stroke a side in match play..

Now on topic..

I'm planning to be in NM for the land of Enchantment adventure and looking forward to the interaction before during and after some great looking golf.  I'll try my best to rekindle my grad school note taking prowess to capture some of the discussion or if the group would allow, try to tape some of it.

There was a thread on trying to set posting rules last winter I believe, it lapsed like most with some good thoughts but no enforceable concensus..  On a positive note its been a while since Sargent Shanks had his ugly & rude postings. So things do tend to seek an equilibrium and follow the rules of nature.

Yes, a DG can be a place to lob in a firecracker off topic, just to make people restart..

Texsport.. & Tiger_B what happened to LSU in baseball, Rice took it to all!

Jeff_B .. Houston Aeros = IHL champs.. but alas the ice has finally melted in the summer's heat

I think if we had an outline of all things gca means and doesn't mean, then there could be threads/collections of information/opinions compiled and posted on same.

I always ask myself.. What would happen if the GCA.COM site disappeared tomorrow.  What would i have given to it and taken away from its pages?
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"