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Carl Johnson

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On another thread, “Playing this weekend?  Where at?” [http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,52288.0.html]  I reported that I would be playing the Old Fort [NC] golf course, 9-holes, for the first time.  I knew nothing about it, except for a review on the GolfLink website (and that one of my former law partners grew up playing there and ended up with a golf scholarship at Duke).  Here’s the review on GolfLink:

"July 02, 2010.  My wife and I played this course today. I read the reviews before playing....and they weren't bad so we decided to give it a go. We were disappointed. There was not a single flat lie on the course....and there were more blind shots than I like. I have played a large number of 9 hole courses and they are all the same....they try and cram a lot of golf into a very small space. This was no exception. All the fairways slope one way or the other...and you need to play the slope in order to score well. All the greens tended to be elevated as well. The fairways weren't overly wide...but they weren't really tight either. There was also a fair amount of winter kill in the fairways due to the harsh winter this past year. The greens however were great...and putted well. It was only $9 to walk...so it was a great deal. If you are looking for a course with flat lies and generous forgiving fairways....drive by this place. If you like blind shots and never having a level lie....stop here!"

This course does not have a website, but the GolfLink site reports that the course was designed by John Von Cleek in 1961.  Anyone know anything about Mr. Von Cleek?  The only references to him that I could find on the web were that he designed the Bobby Jones Golf Course (a muni) in Atlanta, and teamed with Wayne Style to design the Wildwood Golf and C.C. course in Philadelphia.  I also found an indication that he may have designed the back nine at the Black Mountain [NC] Golf Course (in 1962).  (We are talking western North Carolina.  Black Mountain is about 15 miles east of Asheville, and then Old Fort, 10 miles further on east.)   The Black Mountain Course website says only that the front nine was designed by Donald Ross in the 1920s, but it is not listed as a Ross course in Brad Klein’s book.

The Old Fort course.  It is 9-holes on about 40 hilly acres, with relatively small greens.  (Two par 3s, two 5s, par 36.)  The fairways are Bermuda, but not quite 100% back from the bad winter kill several years ago.  The greens were moderate speed, and putted very true -- better than they looked like they would.  Also, they were a little spongy.

The GolfLink reviewer above has it about right, except that what he did not like about the course, I did.  The only level lie I had was for my second on number 8 – my drive having landed on the number 7 tee box, from which I could only hit a short pitch back to the 8 fairway.  You do have to play the slopes, but the slopes favor slicers, for the most part.  On a number of holes you hit a slice, cut or fade into the far right side of the fairway and watch the ball run back down to the left, and hope it stays on the fairway -- it always did for me.  On a couple of others, doglegs right, a slice or fade off the tee or on the second shot, helps.  Fortunately, I can hit a slice/cut on demand (but hook or draw is only an accident). The fairways were very firm -- we spotted a couple of sprinker heads, but I doubt the course gets much watering from them.  You got great roll on your drives (and seconds on par fives), but the elevated greens were not particularly susceptible to roll on approaches.

In sum, I found (also, you do have to “find” this course) this to be a nice little small town, rural America course -- fun.  I don’t think it gets to the quirky category.  It was better than I expected, in fact.  That it’s still in business since 1961 says something.  The folks there were nice, we learned their green staff was three, and it cost us $12 each for 9-holes plus $8 each ($20 total) for a cart.  You could easily walk the course, and many were, but we did not have our carrying bags with us.

Blue tees (back) - 3146, rating 34.6, slope 121.  White tees (next up) - 2945, rating 34.4, slope 109 [too low in my nontechnical opinion].

I’m curious to know if any others have experienced the Old Fort Golf Course.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2012, 07:48:15 PM by Carl Johnson »

Will Lozier

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Re: Old Fort [NC] Golf Course, John Von Cleek (1961)
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2012, 07:11:46 PM »
Carl,

Was it John Van Cleek who partnered with Wayne Stiles?  The link below will take you to an article about these two...they are responsible for many fantastic designs including Taconic at Williams College in MA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/sports/golf/04golfmain.html?pagewanted=all

Cheers

Carl Johnson

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Re: Old Fort [NC] Golf Course, John Von Cleek (1961)
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2012, 08:05:07 PM »
Carl,

Was it John Van Cleek who partnered with Wayne Stiles?  The link below will take you to an article about these two...they are responsible for many fantastic designs including Taconic at Williams College in MA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/sports/golf/04golfmain.html?pagewanted=all

Cheers

Yes, it must be.  In looking at the article you cite, I recall that I have heard of him before.  However, I had the name wrong.  The GolfLink site refers to him as Von Cleek, but given the pairing with Stiles (which was "Stile" on something else I saw), it has to be the same guy.  Thanks very much for tying this in for me.  The NY Times article refers to him as John Van Kleek.  A search under that name is productive.  What I find interesting, and that encourages me to look into this more (did he really design the Old Fort course? was he alive in 1961? is 1961 a good date for the Old Fort course?), is that the Old Fort Golf Course may have a better pedigree than one might have thought.  It really is a little rural (rooster crowing on farm adjacent to no. 3 at 11:00 a.m. - must have gotten up late) 9-hole course of no particular note in N.C. (or, as far as I can tell, anywhere else).  Still, given the land and that certainly very little dirt would have been moved to build it, I think you can tell it was designed by someone who knew what they were doing.

However, I note that on this website [http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/john-van-kleek.html] the Old Fort Course is not listed under Van Kleek's name.  As I said above, I will continue to look into this.  Ultimately, I will call the owner.  He was not there when we played.

Will, thanks again for your response.  Carl
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 12:17:21 PM by Carl Johnson »

Will Lozier

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Re: Old Fort [NC] Golf Course, John Von Cleek (1961)
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2012, 09:52:26 PM »
Carl,

Was it John Van Cleek who partnered with Wayne Stiles?  The link below will take you to an article about these two...they are responsible for many fantastic designs including Taconic at Williams College in MA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/sports/golf/04golfmain.html?pagewanted=all

Cheers

Yes, it must be.  In looking at the article you cite, I recall that I have heard of him before.  However, I had the name wrong.  The GolfLink cite refers to him as Von Cleek, but given the pairing with Stiles (which was "Stile" on something else I saw), it has to be the same guy.  Thanks very much for tying this in for me.  The NY Times article refers to him as John Van Kleek.  A search under that name is productive.  What I find interesting, and that encourages me to look into this more (did he really design the Old Fort course? was he alive in 1961? is 1961 a good date for the Old Fort course?), is that the Old Fort Golf Course may have a better pedigree than one might have thought.  It really is a little rural (rooster crowing on farm adjacent to no. 3 at 11:00 a.m. - must have gotten up late) 9-hole course of no particular note in N.C. (or, as far as I can tell, anywhere else).  Still, given the land and that certainly very little dirt would have been moved to build it, I think you can tell it was designed by someone who knew what they were doing.

However, I note that on this website [http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-architects/john-van-kleek.html] the Old Fort Course is not listed under Van Kleek's name.  As I said above, I will continue to look into this.  Ultimately, I will call the owner.  He/She was not there when we played.

Will, thanks again for your response.  Carl

Carl,

Yeah, the "K" too!  Sorry!  It may ultimately be a different guy given that 1961 date.  But, I would be these are just alternative (or mistaken) spellings for the same JvK.  Please post what you find out.  I'll start digging myself being a teacher who just started his 10-week summer vacation! 

Cheers

Greg Holland

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Carl,

Stiles & Van Cleek designed Starmount Forest CC in Greensboro in the 1920s or 30s.  Chris Clouser found some good info on it, and I have a newspaper article somewhere that describes their original work.  Interestingly, for years, SFCC's scorecard claimed Perry Maxwell designed it, but I think Chris, through his research for his book, helped them figure it out.  Lester George renovated the course several years ago.  It is a fun course. 

Tom MacWood

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There is an excellent book on Stiles by the late Bob Labbance, which goes into great detail about the Stiles and Van Kleek. I'm pretty sure both men were dead in 1961. There is a list of their courses in the book, but nothing called Old Fort. I believe the partnership broke up around 1930, and Van Kleek took a job with the William Moses and the City of NY. He designed/redesigned a good of that city's courses. Cornish & Whitten list Alfred Tull as the designer of Old Fort. He was the former partner of Devereux Emmet, and he died in 1980.

Carl Johnson

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This morning I spoke on the phone with Ron Richardson, who is in the insurance business in Old Fort, NC, and to whom I was directed for information about the history of the Old Fort Golf Course.

Ron said that he was 63 years old, which would place his birth around 1949.  He told me that his father and some other men in Old Fort conceived of the idea of building a golf course in the 1950s, and began buying land in 1958.  The course was completed in 1961.  Ron would have been 12 years old then.  The course was organized as a small, local corporation, with some men investing money, and others receiving stock for services rendered in building the course.  Ron said a lot of volunteer labor and goods went into the course.  The corporation is still owned by Ron and others in the community.

I asked Ron who the architect was, if any.  He said that it was John R. Van Kleek, who had been living in Tryon, NC, in retirement, and who his father and others knew of and got him to come to Old Fort to design the course.  Ron remembered Van Kleek as being in his 70s at the time.  Tryon is about 45 miles south of Old Fort, and has always been a popular retirement community.  On the other hand, Cornish & Whitten, in The Architects of Golf, report that Van Kleek died in 1957 in Tryon, but they do not have a date of birth for him.  They also credit the Old Fort course to Alfred Tull (as noted by Tom MacWood in the post above).  Then, on the web I found a death listing for a "John VanKleek" in Tryon on Feb. 1, 1967, at age 78. [Corrected to Feb. 18, 1967 - see post below.]  He is listed as having been born on Oct. 22, 1888.  Although I have no documentary evidence, at this point I'd go with Van Kleek, myself, after speaking with Mr. Richardson, and considering the Tryon link.

In my conversation Mr. Richardson I learned a lot of other interesting things about the history of the Old Fort course, one of which was that Rev. Billy Graham played there frequently (not now, of course, but in his golf playing days).  Although originally from Charlotte, Graham has lived in Montreat, NC, most of his life, which is about 10 miles west of Old Fort.  Ron said that Graham could play at Old Fort in relative anonymity, and liked it for that reason.   (In the small world department, a number of years ago my wife put together a history museum exhibit on the life of Billy Graham, and among  the artifacts she had on display were a Graham golf bag and set of clubs.)

As noted in posts above, the Old Fort course has lots of slope and bumps.  You must hit the ball in the right place.  If it's dry, you'll get lots of run out (and if not, still some good run out).   For architecture aficionados, I'd recommend a play if you are in the area – just about 25 miles east of Asheville, NC, several miles south from Exit 73 (Old Fort), I-40, at 101 [or, maybe, 1001] Golf Course Rd.  In any case, keep going on down Golf Course Rd. and you cannot miss it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2012, 04:59:55 PM by Carl Johnson »

Will Lozier

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Carl,

I can't find dates for JVK's life anywhere!  Great job tracking down the info you last posted.  I'll have to check out Old Fort next time I am in Asheville - I was just there for a wedding two weeks ago and got married there myself four years ago. 

Cheers

Carl Johnson

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I just received from Mr. Richardson a copy of a portion of the plan for the Old Fort Course, dated June 29, 1960, as prepared and signed by Van Cleek.  [modified]  I have also received the complete drawings.  They are now posted on Ed Oden's compilations of routings thread, page 19, Reply 455: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6fbdcaf72fd98dfd14b07f4e1f3d9d3c&topic=43053.0
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:56:35 PM by Carl Johnson »

Tom MacWood

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Van Kleek died in 1967. There is an interview with his daughter in the book I spoke of and she mentions Old Fort. Evidently he designed the golf course in '60, and the members built it, literally. The members actually constructed the course after work and on weekends. Van Kleek moved to Tryon, NC in 1950s.

Carl Johnson

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Van Kleek died in 1967. There is an interview with his daughter in the book I spoke of and she mentions Old Fort. Evidently he designed the golf course in '60, and the members built it, literally. The members actually constructed the course after work and on weekends. Van Kleek moved to Tryon, NC in 1950s.

Tom, did you see my post above about what I learned from one of the owners, Ron Richardson, and the date of birth and death for Van Kleek?  Mr. Richardson has Van Kleek plans for the course - both preliminary and final.  [modified]  They are now posted on Ed Oden's compilations thread, page 19, reply 455: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6fbdcaf72fd98dfd14b07f4e1f3d9d3c&topic=43053.0

By the way, I took a look for the Labbance book on the web.  The lowest cost I could find was $135, so I don't think I'll be making that purchase any time soon.

Carl  
« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 05:58:24 PM by Carl Johnson »

Tom MacWood

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Van Kleek died in 1967. There is an interview with his daughter in the book I spoke of and she mentions Old Fort. Evidently he designed the golf course in '60, and the members built it, literally. The members actually constructed the course after work and on weekends. Van Kleek moved to Tryon, NC in 1950s.

Tom, did you see my post above about what I learned from one of the owners, Ron Richardson, and the date of birth and death for Van Kleek?  Mr. Richardson Van Kleek has plans for the course - both preliminary and final.  I'm going to get up with Ed Oden and try to figure out how I can get these pdf's posted on his "compliation" thread.  Ed's out of town for a while, so may take a couple of weeks.

By the way, I took a look for the Labbance book on the web.  The lowest cost I could find was $135, so I don't think I'll be making that purchase.

Carl  

Sorry, I missed that post and just read it. That is great info. It is a very good book, but you're right that is a lot money. Maybe all those golf books I've bought over the years are a good investment.

Carl Johnson

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I picked up a copy of the death certificate of John Raymond Van Kleek in the Polk County, NC, courthouse today.  His date of birth is given as Oct. 22, 1888, in Auburn, NY, and his date of death as February 18, 1967, in Tryon (Polk Co.), NC.  His "usual occupation" is listed as "Landscape Architiect" [sic].

For those looking for trivia, the Polk Co. courthouse is located in the county seat (of course), Columbus.  Columbus also happens to be home of the manufcturing plant for Kangaroo motorcaddies.  http://www.kangaroogolf.com/legacy.html

Lester George

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Greg,

You are right about Chris helping them (and me) figure it out at Starmount.  I was told as well (and they insisted) that Perry Maxwell designed Starmount.  Looking at old photos at the time I was not convinced.  It was Chris who set us all on the right path.  By way of photos and an old George Cobb Master Plan, I can demonstrate most of the original features, at least as they existed in 1970 when Cobb renovated the course I was left with. 

Lester