[Randy Thompson]

They have changed throughout the years for sure.

[Ryan DeMay]

Randy,

They are currently using Mini-Verde ultradwarf bermudagrass.  While there's been a lot of talk in the media on how they look, they are certainly playing as greens in tournament conditions should.

[Randy Thompson]

Thanks Ryan, they are rolling good, it looks like they are dried out. There seems to be a lot of blotches, any idea what those are? Is it poa?

[A.G._Crockett]

The blotches aren't poa; it's just a look that bermuda greens get when they are shaved really close.  Plays the same; has no impact on the putts.

[Brent Hutto]

The greens at our course (Bermuda but an older hybrid, not Mini-Verde) were stressed to within an inch of their life for a tournament held there week before last. They'll recover just fine but in the mean while they still have an odd coloration and a sort of blotchy pattern that seems to have rendered my "local knowledge" moot. I can't read a 4-10 foot putt correctly to save my life and it's because all the usual cues of shading and such (for reading the grain) look totally confounded right now.

But they're putting great, considering what they've been through. Ultra-short Bermuda grass is a sort of unnatural thing under the best of circumstances, modern greens keeping is all a miracle as far as I can tell...

[Willie_Dow]

What are the costs involved in changing over to these new putting surfaces?  Is the initial cost an additional annual cost exposure?

[Tom_Doak]

What are the costs involved in changing over to these new putting surfaces?  Is the initial cost an additional annual cost exposure?

Willie:

I believe that the maintenance program for Mini Verde bermuda [or any ultradwarf] is more involved than for other bermuda greens ... you've got to verticut and topdress them more often than older bermudas, which is fairly costly.  Better conditions pretty much always mean a higher maintenance budget.  Changing the grass is not a magical solution, there are always associated costs to keep the conditions at the level they are trying to attain.

[Ben Sims]

What are the costs involved in changing over to these new putting surfaces?  Is the initial cost an additional annual cost exposure?

Willie:

I believe that the maintenance program for Mini Verde bermuda [or any ultradwarf] is more involved than for other bermuda greens ... you've got to verticut and topdress them more often than older bermudas, which is fairly costly.  Better conditions pretty much always mean a higher maintenance budget.  Changing the grass is not a magical solution, there are always associated costs to keep the conditions at the level they are trying to attain.

Tom,

I agree that you are correct for the courses making the switch from TifEagle and other older greens-type Bermuda to mini-Verde and Champions.  However, the courses in the transition zone that are making the switch from bentgrass to any ultra-dwarf Bermuda are likely seeing a cost savings over the course of the year.  I wish there were more people touting the abilities of these ultra-dwarf Bermuda's to roll true in the winter to dispel the rumor of quality.  My opinion is that, if you're south of Charlotte--unless you're only open from October to April--you have no business having bentgrass.  But that's an argument for another day.  

To add, an overlooked aspect is the sand itself.  The actual plants--especially in Champions--is much smaller than a normal bermuda plant.  It takes a higher grade of sand to bridge into the green's surface than what you would normally see used on a Bermuda green.  That per ton cost difference adds up over time.

[Todd Bell]

Is it coincidence that the putting surfaces have improved since they stopped overseeding a couple/few years ago?

 What a novel concept; focus on the playability in lieu of the aesthetics. 

[Bruce Wellmon]

This thread may be relevant.
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48451.0.html

[Randy Thompson]

Is it coincidence that the putting surfaces have improved since they stopped overseeding a couple/few years ago?

 What a novel concept; focus on the playability in lieu of the aesthetics. 

Amen!

[Willie_Dow]

So our Florida courses, say Vero Beach on down, should have ultra dwarf for lowest annual expense and best opportunity for good playing conditions?

[Randy Thompson]

Wille
Half right, best putting vconditions but higher annual cost

[BCrosby]

I'm not a super, but having overseen our u/d's for three years as green chair, what pops out are not the marginally higher expenses to maintain u/d's; it's the substantial savings enjoyed by not having to keep bents alive in the summer in the ATL.

The trade-off is a no-brainer.

Bob

[JMEvensky]

I'm not a super, but having overseen our u/d's for three years as green chair, what pops out are not the marginally higher expenses to maintain u/d's; it's the substantial savings enjoyed by not having to keep bents alive in the summer in the ATL.

The trade-off is a no-brainer.

Bob

Also true if you substitute Memphis for ATL.

[Willie_Dow]

So, how far north can we go ?  What's in Pinehurst, Richard Mandell, Mr. Affordable Golf ?

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