[Brent Hutto]

Stuart,

Taking the course as a whole, there sure seems to be something to the lefty advantage idea. From a short-hitting plodder like Mike Weir to a risk-taking superstar like Phil Mickelson to an uncategorizable freak of nature like Bubba Watson the last few years have resulted in several green jackets won by a wide variety of left-handed players. Far greater than the proportion of lefties in major tournament fields (or among the winners of other majors) would lead one to believe.

[Tim Gavrich]

Tim,

We've been talking about both.

With respect to the 15-20 handicap I'd agree that there's a huge diversity in their play.
With respect to the guys who are playing this week, ball flight and hole location determine the advantage, not stance.

With respect to scoring averages on # 12 and other holes how do the scoring averages compare for the low 10 golfers for the first two rounds compared to the high 10 golfers ?

A lefty, 5 under, on a hole by hole basis, will produce lower averages than a righty (or lefty) who's 10 over.

Pat--

You seem to imply that there are therefore no holes that favor a lefty or a righty per se.  Is this accurate?  If not, can you give an example and show why it favors one side of the ball and #12 at ANGC does not?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tim,

We've been talking about both.

With respect to the 15-20 handicap I'd agree that there's a huge diversity in their play.
With respect to the guys who are playing this week, ball flight and hole location determine the advantage, not stance.

With respect to scoring averages on # 12 and other holes how do the scoring averages compare for the low 10 golfers for the first two rounds compared to the high 10 golfers ?

A lefty, 5 under, on a hole by hole basis, will produce lower averages than a righty (or lefty) who's 10 over.

Pat--

You seem to imply that there are therefore no holes that favor a lefty or a righty per se.  Is this accurate? 

NO, it's not accurate, I never implied that, I think you infered that.

If not, can you give an example and show why it favors one side of the ball and #12 at ANGC does not?

# 2, 5, 8*, 9, 10 and 13 favor a draw of the tee for a righty.
Ditto # 16 on Sunday.

* second shot

As I've said repeatedly, on # 12, hole location and ball flight determines advantage, not stance.
I don't know why that's so hard to understand.
Several players and I think one commentator made the same statement this past week.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Started thinking of this thread after the Masters.  Now while Bubba hits it all over the place his preferred tee ball is that power fade.  That is why iI think the lefty's have a advantage off the tee at ANGC.  12th hole not so sure about, but definately with the driver.

Stuart,

A power fade from a lefty is about the same as a draw from a righty and ANGC favors the righty draw.

[Phil McDade]

Ben,

I don't think pin position matters a whole lot, because the smart play on #12 is always to the middle, so you can take your two putt par and move on.  There are plenty of good birdie holes at ANGC, but this isn't one of them.

Doug:

Not necessarily so. #12 yielded 59 birdies during this year's Masters -- the most (by far) of any of the par 3s, and only the short par 4 3rd (with 66) yielded more birdies among the non-par 5s at Augusta.

[Doug Siebert]

If you hit to the middle you won't have a putt longer than 25-30 feet, and pros will make some of those.  Maybe in the benign wind conditions and soft greens it pays to aim for the hole, but all I can say is that no one has ever won the tournament on the 12th hole, but some have lost it there.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ben,

I don't think pin position matters a whole lot, because the smart play on #12 is always to the middle,

The middle is the narrowest part of the green and it brings a fried egg lie into play in the fronting bunker.

so you can take your two putt par and move on. 

Have you ever played the hole ?

There are plenty of good birdie holes at ANGC, but this isn't one of them.

Would you name them for us ?
Of the par 3's, # 12 is the easiest hole to birdie, by far.
But where are "plenty of good birdie holes at ANGC" ?

I'm surprised there is even discussion about this, it seems obvious to the point of ridiculousness that being a lefty is an advantage on this hole. 
Then tell us, how, when the hole is cut far left, the lefty has an advantage ?

Yes, there is no guarantee that when playing for the middle of the green a lefty's accidental fade/push will lose a few yards to avoid going long left or his accidental draw/pull will gain a few yards to avoid going short right into the water, but the odds of that are certainly better than for a righty making the same errors.

There's not that big a difference in the yardage and going long left has the advantage of a backstop, going long right has no such backstop

Patrick can argue until he's blue in the face with his what ifs, and obviously there are going to be exceptions where a particular player's swing may encourage going long on misses to his dominant side (right for righties, left for lefties) and vice versa, but that's atypical.

The advantage, on a particular day, depends solely on ball flight and hole location, not stance.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If you hit to the middle you won't have a putt longer than 25-30 feet, and pros will make some of those. 

IF you hit it in the middle ? ?  ?

Hey, if you hit it in the hole you won't have any putt.

The problem is, it's not so easy to hit it in the middle.

You're making the assumption that you've already hit a successful shot, this discussion has to do with trying to hit a successful shot.
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Maybe in the benign wind conditions and soft greens it pays to aim for the hole, but all I can say is that no one has ever won the tournament on the 12th hole, but some have lost it there.

That's also untrue, dozens upon dozens of golfers have won the Masters by posting a par or birdie on the 12th, when a bogey or more would have produced a different result.  You can't ignore ANY hole in medal play, they all factor into winning the Masters.

[Doug Siebert]

Patrick,

I think its pretty well accepted that aiming at the middle of any green is the best way of maximizing your chances of actually ending up on the green!  Yes its shallower there but getting the distance wrong is less of a problem there than it is on either side.  If you come up short but straight you're in the bunker (safe from rolling back into the water which could happen if there was no bunker there) where its a pretty simple up and down, unless you're unlucky and end up buried.  If you're long but straight you're also OK (certainly more OK than long left)  These things are true for right handed or left handed players.

The difference comes in what happens if you miss direction-wise, rather than distance-wise.  All else being equal, a righty is more likely to go long than short when missing left.  Long left is bad if you're more than a few yards long - i.e., in the flowerbed.  All else being equal, a righty is more likely to go short than long when missing right (I don't recall ever seeing anyone miss long right until Phil did it this week)  Short right is obviously bad - you hit the slope short and roll back into the water.  A lefty who does the more likely thing and misses short right or long left is perfectly fine when aiming at the middle.  If the pin wasn't in the middle he has a 50/50 chance that his miss gave him a birdie chance he didn't deserve, otherwise its a putt that's easy for a pro to lag within a couple feet.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I think its pretty well accepted that aiming at the middle of any green is the best way of maximizing your chances of actually ending up on the green! 

Accepted by whom ?

Yes its shallower there but getting the distance wrong is less of a problem there than it is on either side. 

That's not true.
If the hole is cut to the right, missing long right isn't that bad

If you come up short but straight you're in the bunker (safe from rolling back into the water which could happen if there was no bunker there) where its a pretty simple up and down, unless you're unlucky and end up buried. 

How can you ignore the steep angle of descent into that bunker from a 9-iron or wedge ?
Buried lies are likely.

If you're long but straight you're also OK (certainly more OK than long left) 
These things are true for right handed or left handed players.

If you're long straight, you're in the back bunker aren't you ?

Doug, if the hole is cut far right, and you're hitting a 9-iron or wedge into that green, and you don't aim at the pin (adjusted for ball flight), you don't belong in the tournament.

By aim at the pin I mean, adjusted for your ball flight.

If I'm a righty, I'm going to aim left of the pin and try to fade it in.
If I'm a lefty, I'm going to aim left of the pin and try and draw it in.


The difference comes in what happens if you miss direction-wise, rather than distance-wise.  All else being equal, a righty is more likely to go long than short when missing left.  Long left is bad if you're more than a few yards long - i.e., in the flowerbed. 

Doug, they're hitting wedges, not 7-irons as in the past, they're not going to airmail the green by the amount you allege, push or pull
You're not going to go in the water if you push your shot and you're not going in the flower bed if you pull your shot.
With longer clubs that was more likely, with wedges, it's less likely.

All else being equal, a righty is more likely to go short than long when missing right

Absolutely not.
You don't know if he missed the green right because of his alignment, swing plane, clubface or mishits.
How can you claim that a righty will go short when missing right ?

(I don't recall ever seeing anyone miss long right until Phil did it this week)

Plenty have.

The problem most golfers have is their desire to squeeze the ball in between the front of the green and the hole, rather than playing on top of the flag. 

Short right is obviously bad - you hit the slope short and roll back into the water.  A lefty who does the more likely thing and misses short right or long left is perfectly fine when aiming at the middle. 

How can a lefty be OK when missing long left ?

If the pin wasn't in the middle he has a 50/50 chance that his miss gave him a birdie chance he didn't deserve, otherwise its a putt that's easy for a pro to lag within a couple feet.

Obviously you missed several golfers three putting that hole.

The best golfers in the world, on a hole that's 145 to 156 aren't going to hit the ball to the narrowest part of the green and leave themselves a 25+ foot putt for birdie when the pin is right.  They're going to go at the hole (adjusted for ball flight)

Have you ever played the hole ?

[Ken Moum]

I think pulls tend to go long and pushes short.  Agree? Disagree?

One of the better-known instructors agrees with you.

http://www.4gea.com.php5-2.dfw1-2.websitetestlink.com/forum/index.php?webtag=GEAFORUM&msg=36491.1

K

[Stuart Goldstein]

Bubba on Letterman last night said he thought lefties had an advantage at Augusta-particulary him cause he likes to hit a cut shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bubba on Letterman last night said he thought lefties had an advantage at Augusta-particulary him cause he likes to hit a cut shot.

Stuart,

A lefty fade is equivalent of a righty draw and for decades a righty draw has been considered advantageous at ANGC.

Trevino and others have stated so for decades.

As, I've indicated on numerous occassions, BALL FLIGHT is THE critical factor, especially at many of those hole locations.

ie, downhill lie on # 11, hole cut back left, who has the advantage, a righty draw or a lefty draw ?
A righty fade or a lefty fade ?

The hole location and architectural features and the juxtaposition combine to create advantages to specific ball flight

UNLESS of course, the cretins on this website think that a lefty draw/hook, didn't give Bubba an advantage when approaching # 10 green in the playoff.

[Steve Salmen]

Regarding aiming at the middle of the green, this is from the SI Golf Masters Preview dated April 12, 2012 page 36:

Donald,only a month away from taking over the top spot in the World Ranking, arrives at the 12th hole only two strokes off the lead but dumps his tee shot into Rae's Creek, leading to a double bogey.

Van Pelt: When he pulled nine iron, I remember thinking, He better hit it good.  Seemed like he did, but the air does funny things down there.

Donald: I was aiming at the middle of the bunker and trying to hit a little hold back to the flag. I pushed it eight or nine yards.  It was very deflating.

Would his ball have been wet if he'd pulled it 8 or 9 yards?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

that's a nice third or fourth party story, but unfortunately I'd classify it as hearsay

If someone could post an aerial of the 13th green at Pine Tree, you'd get a better perspective of an angled, narrow green and how it can play with a two to three club difference depending on hole location.

I have no doubt that Dick Wilson was inspired by # 12 at ANGC

[Tim Gavrich]

Bubba on Letterman last night said he thought lefties had an advantage at Augusta-particulary him cause he likes to hit a cut shot.

A lefty fade is equivalent of a righty draw and for decades a righty draw has been considered advantageous at ANGC.

A left-handed fade is not at all equivalent to a right-handed draw.  A fade per se is not remotely equivalent physically to a draw per se.  The shots may move the same direction if respectively hit by opposite-handed players, but the nature of the swing path and contact that produces them is fundamentally different.  Spin rates are lower with draws, as are launch angles.  If your contention were true, Phil Mickelson would be able to hit that famous shot over Dave Pelz's head by swinging sharply inside-out as well as outside-in.  Even with Mickelson, I guarantee you Pelz would feel quite nervous about that proposition.

So, if the 12th green is very firm, are you arguing that a right-hander who hits a draw's stock shot will stop as quickly as a lefty's stock fade?


As, I've indicated on numerous occassions, BALL FLIGHT is THE critical factor, especially at many of those hole locations.

ie, downhill lie on # 11, hole cut back left, who has the advantage, a righty draw or a lefty draw ?
A righty fade or a lefty fade ?

The hole location and architectural features and the juxtaposition combine to create advantages to specific ball flight

UNLESS of course, the cretins on this website think that a lefty draw/hook, didn't give Bubba an advantage when approaching # 10 green in the playoff.

Since a lefty draw is the equivalent of a righty fade (a corollary of your first statement above), you are saying that a righty could have pulled that shot off on the same trajectory.  There's simply no way.

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