Par 3s

[Jim_Kennedy]

Varying the angles of tee shots on par 3s seems more predominate at 9 holers. I know this is done for variety when going around the same nine twice but it also adds to the array of shot types needed to play these holes.
Would it be an inexpensive way to create more variety of shot types if used on 18 hole coures too?
Would we see more avenues of access built into par 3s if, as on some 9 holers, the tees were 30/40 yds. to the right or left of one another?
Would #12 at AGNC be interesting if played from somewhere nearer to the 11th fairway?    

[Chris Kane]

Jim,

That's a great idea!  A way to create variety, while using minimal resources.  

I can think of an infinite number of par 3's that would be interesting to play from a different angle, and would present a new challenge every time the player stepped up to the tee.

Clubs might have a problem with it becuase it creates inequaty between each round played; people like to compare the round they had today with the round they had yesterday.  If we saw different angles used on par 3's, then in effect a different course is being played each day.

A similar principle could be used on short par 4's: move the tee shot left or right and a different challenge is faced on the tee, a hazard might be in play one day and out of play the next.  It would make the player think more when he plays the hole.  It encourages a variety of strategies to be explored.

As for your theoretical tee box for 12 at ANGC, it would bring the Hogan Bridge into play if the tee shot is hit way short.  Imagine the ball taking heavy bounce on the bridge and hopping onto the green.  If that isn't high drama, then tell me what is!  

Back to the real world, it would make a considerable difference becuase the pond would be very much in play for the pushed or sliced approach, and the bunkers would be on an angle to the player on the tee.  Both bunkers are in play no matter what shot is attempted, so I can imagine a much more difficult hole for the players.  Another way to make Amen Corner tougher.

[TEPaul]

This kind of discussion is very much in line with some of the things that George Thomas designed in LA---basically "courses within a course".

I love this idea and have been thinking a lot about it and seriously for about four years. This is something really fun and interesting to do when working on a routing, but to pull it off well you need two things that are sorely lacking today--width and quite a bit of openness! Lots of trees or a treed site don't work real well with this particular design concept.

As far as golfers wanting to compare their scores to every day they play a course---My God what's the matter with these people, they think of a reason NOT to do anything that's different and interesting. How would you like to belong to a golf course that was sort of two courses or maybe three or more--maybe a different one for every day of the week.

The absolute ideal in this way would be to create something like this and make it look like it was one golf course--to almost disguise one course from the other! Sort of a Rohrshach effect, in fact! What could be better? Thomas was a genius!

[GeoffreyC]

Westchester CC does this with one of its short par 3's.  Depending on the tee used the shot requires a different angle over the bunker and a very steep drop off on the left comes into play differently.  Club selection is about the same form each tee.  Ken Dye actually put in an additional tee further back and to the left requiring play over the drop off that is left of the other tees making a more difficult and longer shot.  I don't know if it has been used in the Buick tournament but I've never seen the tee there for normal play.

Also, the 17th hole at Ocean Forest uses at least eight different tees from two different angles.  It's very effective especially considering the winds that blow around the exposed greensite.

[BillV]

Mahan's California Golf Club of San Francisco has 90* tees to the 16 and it plays like two completely different holes.

The angles are changed along with length on too many water dependent par 3's to count.

e.g.Rees Jones did a good job of this at the Forest Course at Fiddler's Elbow with the back tee 220 all water with different angles for each successively shorter tee aligned directly  with a fairway to bail left and the green 30 yards to the right.  Nicely done.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

The variety feature exist on two par 3's at Boca Rio, # 3 and especially on # 17 where there are two to three back and middle tees providing substantial variety into a unique green.
I'll try to get some pictures from the different tees to give you a feel for the variety.  

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Jim,
When I was young, my father and I designed a par three that played from the green with tees all the way back to 215 yards.  We must have had 15 tees and no matter how many times we played it, I never tired of it.

I would always play from one tee, so as not to get tired of it.

The hole was so very different from the different tees that it really could have been a couple of different holes.

Great post.

[Travis_Hood]

Talamore is not a popular course in the Discussion group, but doesn't the fifth hole have the characteristics you describe.  The one time I played there, my buddy and I played from both sides while our llama fertlilized the treeline.

If I remember correctly the only difference from the angles would be wind direction.

[GeoffreyC]

CB MacDonald discusses this very topic in "Scotland's Gift Golf".

He is speaking of private courses built for friends/customers where little play would be involved so crossing holes etc. would be feasible.  For a  course built for Payne Whitney he says "I grouped three classic holes in the centre of the land which had to be played at different angles. In this way it was perfectly simple to get nine good holes on small acreage.... THis suggested to me the building of a practice ground on six acres by grouping three well-known classic greens namely, a short hole, an eden, and a redan.  By making a tee 42 yards long by 15 yards wide one could go to the front tee and play a ball to each green, then go to the middle tee and play a ball to each green, and then go to the third tee and play a ball to each green.... He has a full page sketch of this.  

It would be easy to vary the angles as well. THe eden hole (#15) at yale has a tee right of the original that requires play of ~170 yards more directly over the front (strath) bunker. It works very well. The back tee from the left most tee plays 180-185 yards.

[Tyler Kearns]

Building multiple tees from varying angles on par 3's, in an attempt to add variety and interest to the course is sorely lacking in most courses. This effort can also be implemented on par 4's and 5's, and is by no means a fruitless pursuit. Spicing up the course, so that it can play differently on a day-to-day basis would help curb the monotony that many country club members face by playing the SAME course everyday.
The space required to add such an array of tees so that you play "mutiple" courses in one may hamper good intentions. Thomas was effective at doing this in the valleys of Bel-Air I believe, and it's an exciting idea to confront a "new" course everyday. Imagine, the infinite possibilities if three sets of back/middle/forward tees were provided at every hole! The combinations would be incredible.

[Jeff_Stettner]

How about number nine at Kingsley? The tees are so far apart that there really are two golf holes. Of course I'm not sure that the left tee works all that well. I do, however, appreciate the opportunity to debate its merits, an option only because Mike decided to create both angles.

[Mike_DeVries]

Great topic

Jeff,

We won't go into the debate on the two different orientations of #9 at KC again, but it does make for two very different plays and is ideal for someone playing 36 holes a day, variety-wise.  The opportunity was there and with par 3's, you definitely want to have more tee space than less, so we went with it and it is very popular.

Also, the 2nd hole at KC has some variance in the angle played into it, although not nearly as drastic as #9.  But the right hand side gives a more open view and the left is a bit obscured by the scruffy grass of the bunker short of the approach.

The 13th there is the short par 4 (285 yards) and the tees offer a wide dispersion of options to a wide fairway and a huge and undulating green.  The tee you play from will affect how aggressive you decide to be, as a slice from the right tee, down the right side will likely go into the long grass or down the hill towards #12.  Likewise, a drive from the left that is hit to the right of the fairway and is too long could get into some trouble.  The endless options in angle, club selection, tee position, and strategy make it for a fun hole and one that will always be different.

[Will E]

Please forgive me for bringing up the floating green in Idaho.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Mike:
I guess I should have added a smily face after my comment about the tee's merit. I'm just still trying to figure out how to hold that green. Ah, how bitter I must be.

[JohnV]

The second hole at Bandon Dunes has a set of tees up above the first green.  They were the original tees, before they decided to build the ones down below and left.  As far as I know, they are still maintained, but never used.  They definitely give a different angle and make an interesting hole, particularly in the winter wind when they play downwind.

[Mike_DeVries]

Jeff  ,

No problem, I think you will just have to come back to try it again.  And this time, try to get your game in order!!!!  

Another multi-angle, and height-wise too, is 10 at Pacific Dunes -- makes for two very different holes/shots and works well with the dual green at the ninth, for a variety of options and play sequences.

Similarly, the 8th at Heathlands at the Legend in Myrtle Beach that Doak did has a wide variety of angles and blindness/openness to it.  With the green set between two hills and open in the front and back, but with a ridge in front of the green, it makes for some interesting plays.  There is a big false front that will suck a ball back into the approach and the back part of the green falls away, so an aggressive shot will roll off to the apron.  All of that in a short iron!

[Ken_Cotner]

Tobacco Road.  At least one of the short holes is an extreme case, with tees set up to allow the angle to differ by as much as 90 degrees.  I like it.

KC