Golf Digest Best New: ASGCA?

[David Wigler]

Tom,

We is the collective voice of this DG.  If anyone were to read it over time, I cannot believe they would disagree with that.  The good thing about we is if you do not believe you are a part of it, then you are not.

Bill,

Do you really believe TS South is the model for resort courses?  It is mundane and repetitive with not distinguishing features.  I do not disagree with yours (Or Tommy's) assessment of #2 at TS North and as I said earlier, I do not want to be a mouthpiece for Ron Whitten's comments in general, but he is right about Talking Stick South.  C & C are exceptionally talented at making "Natural" courses.  IMO they are very ordinary at making resort style courses and TS South could have been done better by Fazio, Nicklaus, Curley, Hills, RTJ Jr., or even (Dare I say) Rees, since this is the style of design they specialize in.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom H -- one beer is often referred to as "swing oil."

[THuckaby2]

Well said, Bill.  It's just when you get "well-oiled" that it becomes a problem!

BTW, sorry Ran for my rants vis-a-vis drug testing.  The esteemed Mr. King and I have taken this "off-line" as it were.  I do learn a lot from him in these debates...

TH

[Craig Van Egmond]

David,

         Would you consider Kapalua Plantation a resort course? I'd say C & C did a pretty fair job on that one.  

          While I agree that TS North is the better course of the two, but I would be hard pressed to pick 20 courses in Scottsdale that I would play over TS South.

Just my two cents.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
I do disagree with that assessment - there is no collective voice. There's constant disagreement on every conceivable subject - it wouldn't be much of a DG is everyone agreed. I don't think we need to do anything other than hold to whatever beliefs we have as individuals. You are free to call the course bad, but I'm not sure the 'DG' needs to agree with your assessment so that WE are not considered elitists. Who calls this DG elitist and what do they mean by elitists?

And I do not recall Whitten's comments being particularly strong or condemming - more of a minor complaint. What exactly did he say?

[David Wigler]

Craig,

I have never been to Hawaii (Tough to make a trip from Detroit) so I cannot comment on Kapalua.  I hope one day I can make it and comment on it as well as Mauna Kea.

IMO and in alphabetical order as to the 20 better courses I get ASU Karsten Course, Boulders South, DM Chiracuah, DM Renegade, Estancia, Greyhawk Talon, Greyhawk Raptor, Las Sendas (A very good example because it is a similar course), Legend Trail, Raven at South Mountain, Superstition Mountain Lost Gold, Talking Stick North, Troon G&CC, Troon North Monument, Troon North Pinnacle.  OK I lied! I can only think of 15 I like better (Limiting myself to those I have played or walked).  I have heard good things about the other course at the Apache Stronghold, Boulders, the other three courses at Desert Mountain, Desert Highlands, Gold Canyon and others though so I am not sure my statement is untrue just that I cannot make it with first hand certainty.

[David Wigler]

Whoa Tom !

I do not thing the DG needs to agree with my assessment on anything.  Furthermore, my comments were addressed to Tommy not to the DG or anyone else as an indictment.  If you do not feel that this DG has an overriding collective voice that favors old over new and traditional over modern than there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise (Since my proof would be to simply read posts) and I will not bother to try (Frankly, I agree with this collective voice most of the time).  I will simply agree to disagree on that point.  

No one needs to agree that TS South is bad to avoid being an elitist and that is a huge leap from my post.  To avoid being an elitist though, I do agree that C&C's bad efforts should be given the same judgment as Fazio's mailed it in efforts, not spared just because it is C&C.  I was merely questioning whether Tommy was sparing TS South based on the architect and not the course merits.  Nothing more / nothing less.

[Craig Van Egmond]

David,
          I will only comment on the courses that you mentioned that I have played.

ASU Karsten - Wow you must really think TS South is bad! Only redeaming feature I recall was it was cheap for the area. (one of the Dye boys did it)

Legend Trail - Played it twice, was once too much. (Rees)

Raven at South Mountain - I liked the course, but not more than TS South, definately different. (Panks/Graham)

Greyhawk Raptor/Talon - I prefer the Talon over the Raptor and then are both very good courses, however costs twice as much to play as TS and not really worth it.   (Fazio, Panks/Graham)

Troon North Monument/Pinnacle - See above.  (Weiskoff/Morrish, Weiskoff)

Las Sendas - I love this course, my favorite RTJ Jr.  I don't really see it as similiar to TS South though.

What is that didn't work for you on TS South?  I don't recall Ron Whitten saying it was a bad course, just that he didn't like the bunkering. Anybody know what issue that was?

I'm not taking it personally, just trying to get my post count up and these courses are actually something I know about.  

[BillV]

David

Sorry, but TS South has variety, gets the weaker player around, doesn't bore the better player to death nor insult him or her and without histrionics.  Granted, the WOW factor isn't great, but remove the WOW factor from TSN and you are left with only 2/3 of a hamburger. I seem to be able to give Fazio a bigger pass than you seem to allow to pass for C&C.  

In all seriousness, I won't go down your list of courses, but we may be talking my pretty girl hair colour thing here.

John VanderBorght and I played TSS together before going out to play Apache a year or two ago and we pretty much agreed on my statements about TSS.  I won't interfere with your opinion about TSS except to say that I disagree, and I, too agree that C&C probably get more than they deserve here.

No one bats 1.000 by anyone's standards except Fazio by his own (Paraphrase from his book), and I give him the credit he deserves.  

[David Wigler]

Bill,

Very well said.  Perhaps I am trying a little to hard to be the C&C thought police.

Craig,

ASU Karsten was a stretch, I could not come up with a compelling arguement if you pushed me on it.  For what it is worth, I did not add the Phoenician, TPC Scottsdale, Camelback, or McCormick Ranch or any of the Wigwam (Although I think I might have been able to make an argument for Red) which might be the sum total of my experience in Arizona.    

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

David
I misunderstood, I didn't realize you were only referring to you and Tommy when your said we need to be careful here because you had heard our DG referred to as elitist because we make broad generalizations about old architecture.

I personally do enjoy some architecture better than other architecture but it really has nothing to do with age. And I know nothing about TS, for all I know the course may be bad. I was more caught by your generalizations of a group that seems to regularly disagree about relative merits of courses and architects - like TS South.

Does anyone know exactly what Whitten said?

[Craig Van Egmond]

Here is what Ron Whitten said in the Architorture article from the August 1999 issue of Golf Digest.

Stiff upper lips

    One of the things Ben Crenshaw admires most about Royal Melbourne Golf Club in Australia , site of the most recent Presidents Cup: the high vertical lips on its bunkers. Some rise 18 inches above the top of the sand. They add an intimidation factor, both from a distance and certainly from within any of those pits.
    Similiar bunkers can be found at another nearby golf course, Kingsten Heath. Both are designs of golf architect Alister Mackenzie, a Crenshaw favorite.
    But when Crenshaw and his design partner Bill Coore gave the Royal Melbourne treatment to the bunkers on their year-old South Course at Talking Stick in Scottsdale, Arizona, they overdid it. Especially since Talking Stick is open to public play.
    Their bunker edges aren't merely vertical, they're tilted inward, turning yawning bunkers into sneering ones. Balls can plug beneath these stiff upper lips into impossible lies. You can't move a the ball forward, sideways offers no relief and there's no way to get a club on the ball to hit it backward. The only remedy: a drop under Rule 28 and a one stroke penalty.
    The other 18 at Talking Stick, the North Course, has a different set of bunkers, with the sand raked to the top and the rims planted in shaggy grasses. While they look equally fearsome, at least they are escapable.
     Our rule: If a bunker lip casts a shadow at high noon, it's Architorture.

And there it is. Nothing about the course except the bunkers.

[GeoffreyC]

I liked Talking Stick South quite a bit.  It is a very playable course with sound strategy and interest built into almost every hole.  Some holes are down right excellent.  

The greensites are a combination of Tillinghast style pushup above the level of the fairway (ala Winged Foot) combined with MacKenzie style fierce bunkering.  In this respect while less natural then the adjact North course they played perhaps better. The greensites at the North are extensions of the desert floor.

The strategies are sometimes simple. #1 challenge the fairway bunker on the right and the 2nd into the green can avoid going over the deep left side bunker at teh green.

#2 just the opposite. Bail out right and you have to deal with a righ greenside bunker.

#3 is downrigh excellent.  A 228  yard par three with great visual deception. The bunker on the right looks fierce and to be avoided at all costs.  It looks to be directly adjacent to the green but it is probably 30 yards short.  Bailing out over to that side also leaves an uphill pitch to the green.  Going to what appears visually to be the easier left side is avtually the more difficult place to play from if you miss.  Wonderful hole!

#4 327 yard par 4 with a central fairway bunker.  It is 220 to carry it or if you choose go left or right.  The green is bunkerless.   Bombs away if you choose.

#5  470 yard monster par 4 into the wind. Challenge the fairway bunkers on the right if you want a direct shot into the green.

I won't go over every hole but I'll mention #14, a par 5 (541 yards) that uses a desert ravine as a diagonal hazard . The green tilts from front right to back left in such a way that the choice of which side of the ravine to lay up on creates different length and different angles for the third shot. You can also bomb it off the tee to get a better possible angle into the green for a shot at it in two or you can lay up off the tee and still be able to cross the ravine on your 2nd for a short third into the green but at a poor angle.  Good hole.

#15 also creates an interesting line of charm towards the green in the distance but that requires messing with two sets of bunkers.  Better to just play away from the line of charm and the green off the tee.

#16 another excellent par 5 with a diagonal hazard except its a stream this time. Again playing the angles is interesting and fun.

TSS is not a great course but I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone.  At 6800+ yards its good golf.