News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
I played Arcadia Bluffs for the second time this fall.  I was more impressed the second time I saw it than the first (a clear sign of quality GCA, no?). 

I am amazed how little attention this course receives on GCA.com.  Hopefully this thread can generate some real discussion.

I have profiled the course on my blog: http://onegolferstravels.blogspot.com/2012/01/arcadia-bluffs-golf-club-review.html

NB: I am not a professional journalist.  I'm a guy who loves golf courses and my blog is just a (time consuming) labor of love.  I apologize for posting the link, rather than posting the review here on GCA, but it will take a couple of hours to convert and I want to start discussing Arcadia now!  I will try to get the Arcadia review posted here at some point over the next few days.

I like Arcadia bluffs.  I have my flame-retardant suit on... fire away!

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2012, 01:18:43 AM »
A number of us early GCA.com posters played there as a group shortly after it opened, just after the landslide was repaired to allow it to open, and before they altered the routing.  As you can imagine, it generated mixed opinions.  I was in the camp that expressed my enjoyment of the round, and noted the very unique design characteristics, that are admittedly gimicky and extreme.  Yet, it still left a fun golf experience in my mind to remember.  The obvious of note design 'gimicks' are the two distinct style of bunkering, with sod wall deep ones in play withing FWs and greenside, and the free form MacKenziesque bunkers in the rough areas, more for eyecandy than likely hazards.  Although, it isn't impossible to hit a ball so far astray... I can prove it! ;)

The extreme design of the par 5 (5th?) green as something of a double plateau or deepest Biarritz swale ever... (Angels Crossing comes close).  The cavernous bunker at what was then the 12th greenside, was also dramatic followed by the wild and sprawling par 3.

So, I put it down in a category something like I view Tobacco Road.  and out of the box design, that took design feature chances, and it left me with a grin.  Others, not so much...  ::) ;D 8)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2012, 07:01:49 AM »
I like it a great deal too, especially 5 and 11.  Cool routing cmes back to the clubhouse at 7 and 15.  Thought I got lost and played the wrong hole!
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Anthony Gray

Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2012, 07:47:20 AM »


 What's not to like. i have never played it and often wondered if it was worth my effort to go out of my way for it. Just about everybody tells me its not. I can't imangine why not. Looks more quirky than Whistling Straits. The bunkering looks bold. Mark I hope you can give us hole by hole pics, you have spoiled us.

  Anthony




Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2012, 10:00:32 AM »
Mark,

I think the general feeling of many here is not that it's a crap course, but that it's somewhat overrated and overpriced, particularly relative to the many other great options available in northern Michigan.  What would your Doak rating on the place be?
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2012, 10:07:56 AM »
The obvious of note design 'gimicks' are the two distinct style of bunkering...

Like say, the hideous "Brazilian" bunker now gracing the 18th fairway at Chambers Bay?

Boey
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2012, 10:36:18 AM »

My feeling on Arcadia is that it is a great golf course and a top 100 in the US.  However, it has some head scratchers.  I love the stretch from 2-5 and 10-14.  I am not a big fan of 1 or 18, especially 18.  Also, Mark is 100% right that the greens are big and undulating but lack a purpose in many spots.  How many double plateau greens are on that course???

I look forward to playing the course again and will try and make it up there this summer. It is a must stop in northern Michigan.  While I have not played either, my guess is that it falls below Crystal Downs and Kingsley in the region, but above Bay Harbor, Treetops and other popular resorts.  However, you will ask yourself what a renovation by Doak or C&C would look like.
 
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2012, 11:09:43 AM »
Mark,

I think the general feeling of many here is not that it's a crap course, but that it's somewhat overrated and overpriced, particularly relative to the many other great options available in northern Michigan.  What would your Doak rating on the place be?

Jud, overpriced? I thought this board found value judgments irrelevant?  ;D

I think Arcadia is a bang-on Doak 7:

7. An excellent course, worth checking out if you get anywhere within 100 miles. You can expect to find soundly designed, interesting holes, good course conditioning and a pretty setting, if not necessarily anything unique to the world of golf.

I don't know that you will learn anything new GCA-related playing Arcadia, but I would definitely drive 100 miles to play it, and it is in a darned pretty setting.

Overrated?  I think GD has it as number 10 you can play.  If I ignore my personal tastes which would have Wine Valley and The Prairie Club competing for a top-10 spot, I think it's about right.  I could nitpick the list, but I basically agree with all the courses ahead of it, and basically agree with all of them below it.

The more I think about Arcadia, the more I like it.  The variety of holes and shots required is exceptional.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2012, 11:13:08 AM »

I am not a big fan of 1 or 18, especially 18. 
 

Fully agree! 18 is a head-scratcher, though the placement of that back tee box, over-looking the entire golf course is frigging awesome!

1 is fine.  Not much to hate, but not much to love, either.

I do have Arcadia below Crystal Downs and Kinglsey, but that is some lofty company to compare it to.  Of the public courses I've played in Michigan (note I have not played Belvedere), Arcadia is comfortably in the top spot.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2012, 01:14:01 PM »

I am not a big fan of 1 or 18, especially 18. 
 

Fully agree! 18 is a head-scratcher, though the placement of that back tee box, over-looking the entire golf course is frigging awesome!

1 is fine.  Not much to hate, but not much to love, either.

I do have Arcadia below Crystal Downs and Kinglsey, but that is some lofty company to compare it to.  Of the public courses I've played in Michigan (note I have not played Belvedere), Arcadia is comfortably in the top spot.

I have not played Belvedire or Harbor Shores.  I have it #1 above Forest Dunes, but narrowly.

"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2012, 01:22:59 PM »

One other head scratcher when I looked at your pictures. 

Why the trees left of the green on #13.  Open the left of that hole up for views if nothing else.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2012, 01:56:08 PM »
I know I've said on here before that one could look at Arcadia Bluffs as all beauty and no brains, but thinking back on all of my rounds at the course I realize one constant:  I have always thoroughly enjoyed my time there.

Is the course perfect?  Of course not.  Are there some head scratchers?  Yes.  But there are also some really cool, fun, and interesting holes and I would argue it sits on one of the best, if not the best, non-ocean waterfront sites around.  Some of the views from the course are absolutely stunning. 

Not to mention, drinking a beer on that back patio at sunset on a warm August evening is one of the best experiences you can have, golf or otherwise.
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 01:58:33 PM »

I am not a big fan of 1 or 18, especially 18. 
 

Fully agree! 18 is a head-scratcher, though the placement of that back tee box, over-looking the entire golf course is frigging awesome!

1 is fine.  Not much to hate, but not much to love, either.

I do have Arcadia below Crystal Downs and Kinglsey, but that is some lofty company to compare it to.  Of the public courses I've played in Michigan (note I have not played Belvedere), Arcadia is comfortably in the top spot.


Count me as one who really enjoys Arcadia. 

For those that find #18 a head-scratcher, what is it about the hole that causes you to scratch?
So bad it's good!

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 01:59:40 PM »

Why the trees left of the green on #13.  Open the left of that hole up for views if nothing else.


I'm not sure of this but considering a good portion of that ravine ended up in Lake Michigan and almost closed the entire project, I doubt anyone is comfortable removing any further vegatation from that hill.

Ken

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2012, 02:11:25 PM »
I echo George's comments.  It's a beautiful and fun course to play.

The bunkering has always struck me as "throw everything including the kitchen sink in" for styles and despite the Ireland motif, there is no "ground" game to be played there.

I'm firmly in the camp that can't understand the hype The Straits Course at Whistling Straits gets compared with Arcadia Bluffs.  Give me the choice between the two and pay full rate (sorry, but at these numbers, it has to be considered) Arcadia is a no brainer.  $180 to play Arcadia Bluffs vs. $450 at Straits?!?  ($340 green fees plus $60 mandatory caddie plus tip).

I have about 12 rounds in at Arcadia Bluffs and continue to enjoy it more each time around.  Local knowledge helps.  Mentioning Crystal Downs or Kingsley in the same comparison is impressive company.  While both CD and Kingsley rank much higher for me personally, a group I brought one year to play all three liked Arcadia Bluffs over the other two.

Ken

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2012, 02:24:16 PM »
I think the price is a little high, but I also think it's a Doak 7...maybe 7.5 even.

I once said that the 11th green would be a great place to propose marriage to a girl:)
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2012, 03:53:56 PM »
I think the price is a little high, but I also think it's a Doak 7...maybe 7.5 even.

I think Tom would disagree.  If I remember correctly, this course has been discussed here quite a bit when it opened and Tom didn't like it.  I'll let him speak for himself.

Warren Henderson use to post here every once in a while.  Seems to me he got in a pissing match with Doak and never posted again.  That must have been 5 years ago.

Personally I thought the course was fun.  Is it a great course, probably not.

Jim Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2012, 04:53:17 PM »
The three times I've been on the property have all been great.  I've always liked Arcadia Bluffs.  You're able to use the slopes of the greens to feed golf shots toward the hole.  You've got some really fun golf shots on that course mixed in with some wonderful views.  The sodwall bunkers are cool.

I will say they keep the course too soft.  The course would be better if they firmed it up, which would allow for the ground game into greens, as well as bring more fairway bunkers into play.  It's too bad the course isn't more walkable.  You can walk it, but it's clear the course was built for carts.  The short flags on the course = weird.

Jeff Tang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2012, 05:08:45 PM »
The three times I've been on the property have all been great.  I've always liked Arcadia Bluffs.  You're able to use the slopes of the greens to feed golf shots toward the hole.  You've got some really fun golf shots on that course mixed in with some wonderful views.  The sodwall bunkers are cool.

I will say they keep the course too soft.  The course would be better if they firmed it up, which would allow for the ground game into greens, as well as bring more fairway bunkers into play.  It's too bad the course isn't more walkable.  You can walk it, but it's clear the course was built for carts.  The short flags on the course = weird.

Got to agree with my brother on the flags.  What's odd is that I'm assuming that the flags are short and stout to withstand the gale force winds which presumably blow through there.  However, on my three or four plays there I can't remember there being more than a breath of wind. Funny to see these short flags ready to withstand 50 mph winds and then the flag just hanging limply on the flagstick.
So bad it's good!

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2012, 05:16:40 PM »
Count me as another who really enjoyed my round at Arcadia Bluffs.  It helps that we got it on an absolutely perfect day, low '70s, almost no wind.  It lacks some teeth when the wind isn't blowing, but it felt to me like a course where good shots were well rewarded, and poor shots fairly punished.  The setting is so nice that I think there's a bit of a natural backlash, as if the rest of the course perhaps isn't deserving of the location, but I loved it, and look forward to getting back sometime in the near future.  

As for the flags, I thought they were pretty cool, if a bit gimmicky.  They do mess a bit with one's perception. 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2012, 05:18:26 PM by Bill Seitz »

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #20 on: January 17, 2012, 05:20:21 PM »
I don't believe the course is fescue as I don't remember much of a ground game.  If so, that was a mistake, especially considering the wind at times.  

I also don't remember many shots that could be run up if they had fescue.  For instance, 3 and 5 are both carry par 5s.  Also, 4 has a punchbowl green, but it is not open like #18 at Old Mac (I used to love this punchbowl until I saw 18 at Old Mac, now I know what is missing).  #11 cannot because of the ridge in the green - any ball rolling up to the green will go right (no chance to roll up and have it go left).

Again, I really enjoyed the golf course and as a result rank it pretty high.  However, when you really analyze every detail, you just scratch your head on some things - like these issues above - and wonder about the lost opportunity (with that site) to have one of the best courses in the US.  For instance, if Doak or C&C designed the course, would we be discussing a course comparable to Crystal Downs or the Bandon courses?
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #21 on: January 17, 2012, 05:23:44 PM »

The short flags on the course = weird.

Jim,

I asked the pro when I was there what the deal was with the tiny flagsticks.  He had no idea.  I said maybe because of the strong winds.  He said maybe...

The thing I loved about them, though, was that they made the scale of the bunkers feel even grander.  Those huge bunkers set against the tiny flagsticks seriously added to the intimidation factor.

Michael George

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #22 on: January 17, 2012, 05:46:06 PM »
Here is a description of some issues with Arcadia posted by Warren Henderson several years ago:

6th Hole - This green sits in a natural amphetheater setting. The various elevation changes in the green surface are a reflection of the way the existing slopes and ridges worked down off the preexisting hillside. The fronting bunker on this hole is certainly the most obvious hazard but I believe the contours of the green itself create the most challenge from the tee. It certainly is to your advantage if you have played the course to understand this, the elevation change is some 23 feet uphill from tee to green.  

9th Hole - The bunker on this hole has generated quite a bit of discussion. Most either hate or love it with few in between. As we were building this hole and the more time I spent on the property, the ravine for me became less of a strategic element and more the defining edge of a dramatic setting. As such I felt that the hole should be looked at from the perspective of what challenges should be presented in and around the complex itself. The green is more than 40 yards wide and almost 29 yards deep, a target larger than many fairways I have seen. I felt the elevation change plus the distance made the bunker possible because even for those players using the back tee and potentially hitting 3 wood, the ball would be descending in its flight. Personally, from the rear tee I have always found that playing out to the right side of the green was the best play, the ball then works back into the green.

14th Hole - The left side pin location on this hole is well protected by what is the only bunker on the hole at the left front of the green. Based on your comments I would say that it has been succesful because it has caused you to think through the options. Long hitters actually have the option of going at this side of the green because at 60 plus feet in depth it can hold a mid iron shot. For others the choice is to play it safe and run into the open right side or try and turn it over a little and feed the ball down the slope. One of the main goals in the design of this course was to create options at every turn, I think this brings people back and makes the course fun to play.

18th Hole - One of the difficult things in working with a property with dramatic coast line and stunning views is that not all the holes can be on the coast or have the best view and while the 18th tee has a great view behind you of Lake Michigan, it is playing away from this vista. I had noted in a previous thread that the Arcadia course can actually be played in four different routings. Two of them have the current 18th as the finishing hole and the others have the current 11th as the finish. The routing change proposed for next year will continue to have the current 18th as the finish. Having said all that the debate will rage on as to whether it is a solid finish. I like the tee shot and think that it has a big impact on peoples perception of the hole. The center bunker requires a decsion as to the line of play. Hit it right and yes you will be blind into the green, but remember you chose the safe tee shot. Trying to fly the bunker will give you the best angle for the biggest risk. Working it left of the bunker will open up the view into the hole but it will leave you with an even greater uphill shot. Similar to the 6th hole and due to the 42 feet of uphill elevation change, the green was set up to be very receptive. Once on the suface the contours are the cahllenge.

10th Hole - To correct you, only 18 feet of the middle section of this green, which is 60 feet deep, breaks away from play. The back right section drains through the middle and out the front. To take advantage of the slope of the green it is best to play either right or left of the bunker.  


The decision to combine two distinct bunker styles was not something I took lightly. I anticipated that it might be criticized by some but I arrived at the decision after careful study of many of the great bunkers from other courses. The one thing that stood out to me was when stacked sod or timbers were used to shore eroded areas of bunkers that it was this contrast of materials that appealed to me. The large waste area on hole 2 was the genesis of this concept. From the tees the bunker works through native grasses, sand and plants to ultimately work into the right side of the green. It was at its termination at the green where I worked the sod wall effect into play. My intention was not to create a look alike effect of other bunkers I had seen but rather to go one step further in the creation of something unique. The fescue blow out style bunkers are for the most part worked into the surrounding hillsides while the more formal sod wall bunkers are worked into the rolls in the fairways or greens. There is some deviation of this for variety.
"First come my wife and children.  Next comes my profession--the law. Finally, and never as a life in itself, comes golf" - Bob Jones

George Freeman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2012, 06:37:16 PM »
Michael - thanks.

Hard to tell which holes he is talking about for the 9th, 10th, and 14th as those holes were subsequently rearranged (as he alluded to in his comments).
Mayhugh is my hero!!

"I love creating great golf courses.  I love shaping earth...it's a canvas." - Donald J. Trump

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Arcadia Bluffs GC (Smith/Henderson, 1999) - Course Profile and Review
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2012, 06:58:41 PM »
George, based on the descriptions I think:

6 = 6

9 = 13

14 = 10

10 = 15 (I think)

I find it really interesting what he said about 18.  With the fairway to the right of the bunker sloping toward the rough, and the smallness of that openning, I am convinced that playing right of the bunker is anything but the safe play.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back