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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green contours, speeds and hole locations?
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2011, 10:40:48 AM »
Dean,

For some historical perspective on your basic premise, I am reminded of some of my all time fave quotes from Colt, who said most of the greens outght to be cuppable, and in no case shall a putt "run from the putter like a swine possessed by the devil" i.e. not be controllable with a good stroke. 

My reading of most of the architectural classics is that few gca's of the golden era were designing philosophically to create a putt that couldn't be gotten close or made, if struck well. But, with slower greens, that general sense of fairness and design to reward skill was doable at up to 10%, then reduced about 1% per decade to well under 2% now.

The idea that most greens should be really wild is as much gca.com nostalgia, and in many cases better sound bite than sound practice, but sound bites are what pass for wisdom these days in media, on the internet, wherever, conversations or statements are made!

Whoever mentioned its not black and white has my vote, however.  I have no problem with a few greens on any course I design or play having some unusual putts.  I have always felt that at some point, it goes over the top and becomes goofy golf.  As I think TD has pointed out on various similar threads, that threshold may vary considerably from 0 to 18.  My sense from asking the question to legions of golfers over the years that the over/under on wild greens is probably likely to sit at around 4 for 18 holes.

And philosophically, I have alway said that a gently rolling green is most proportional and makes a 10 foot putt about half as hard (or statistically makeable) as a 20 foot putt.  However, if you put a shelf, knob, or whatever in the green, its possible to have shots of a few inches different location treated way differently from bouncing a foot from the hole to careeming off the green.  In general, it does happen, and we cannot eliminate it, but I doubt too many players think we should actually design for it!

And, I wonder why the discussion goes back to the pros?  As some have pointed out, why design a muni as a challenge for the pro?  No tournaments will ever come.  The challenges can and should be no more than 75-90% of what the pros face to make the "course experience" anywhere close to the same for average golfers.

It will also be interesting to see if the modern movement by some gca's to increase contours (and some of my greens fit this category!) will be met with the same fate as older greens that no longer have 10 pin positions, and numerous 3 and 4 putts on a daily basis.  I predict they will, at least at the courses that haven't been named in the top 50.  Those top courses will survive longer on reputation and preserving the design, but for all the lesser courses that strove to be a once in a lifetime golf experience, but fell short, and now rely on everyday play for business, if the greens stuggle or need to be rebuilt, they will be rebuilt differently and most likely, flatter.

As always, just MHO.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Green contours, speeds and hole locations?
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2011, 10:44:53 AM »
Jeff, interesting. Thank you.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!