A full Biarritz for the Nationwide Tour

[herrstein]

Hello fellow architecture nuts,
Long time, no post. Too many kids. But I thought this group might enjoy seeing how the Nationwide boys do on our newly lengthened (about 256 yds to clear the swale) Biarritz at Black Creek.
The exchange between our Superintendent and the PGA Tour rep was telling (I will paraphrase for brevity):
PGA Tour Rep: "What's this I hear about a 250 yard par 3?"
BCC Super: "We are building one of those, yes."
PGA: "I hate that kind of hole."
BCC: "You won't have to play it."
PGA: "The Pros hate that kind of hole."
BCC: "Forward tees will be available for the professionals."
Trying to present to modern players the shot values of a Raynor/Macdonald hole has been the intent from the start at Black Creek; when we did this back in 1999 the idea of building a driver par three (imagine a 220 yard hole in 1924) was just too much for our Lilliputian minds. But we called Silva back this summer for some tweaks and this was one of them.
The hole is slightly downhill, so it plays about 240 to fly it to the back in still air. It's a three-finger driver for me. And boy, is it fun.
We're also having a homecoming of sorts for Harris English and Luke List, both of whom played here as their home course when they played at Baylor School. Harris comes in as the Number 1 ranked NT player in their "Power Rankings;" Luke is 30th on the money list and a good showing here could put him on the Big Tour.
Weather is perfect, course is in great shape. If we only had a little breeze to make them think twice, but it's going to be a fun week.

[Jason Topp]

Good luck with the event Doug!

[john_stiles]

The hole is plenty wide for them at that yardage.  With a back tee, it's only a hybrid of some sort, maybe a 4 or 5  iron.   

It is an extremely difficult hole if you are in the dip, or playing through the dip.  If you have to play through the dip,  you might miss the putt by 10 feet left, right, short or long.  It will make them look 'silly.'     They are pros and PGAT doesn't like to look silly.

I can think of 4 great hole locations, and none of them are very far from the chasm.  Hopefully,  the  PGAT has at least one hole location near the chasm.

We do want the 'home' boys to have some advantage !

[Jeff_Brauer]

Doug,

I would love to hear reaction to the hole, post event.  If there is a pro am or other member play, I would love to hear the average golfer's reaction to a true lengthened to same shot value as the 20's Biarritz!  Keep us posted, please.

[Mark Pritchett]

What a great hole on a wonderful course.  Best of luck with the tournament.

Above is a picture of friend of mine getting a taste of the 17th's fantastic green.  

[herrstein]

I am told that they plan to use the longer tee on the weekend, only.
We also modified the other tees, although not the original back tee, which is part of the 16th green complex. They didn't like that too much, either, apparently thinking it was too close to the green for safety- although I have never seen anyone hit onto the 17th tee while playing 16.
We now have a tee which is less straight on, a little bit of a fade look. I really like that one.
Heading out there now for the Pro-Am. I guarantee you we will not be playing the new tee then!

[JMEvensky]

Googling Black Creek was how I found golfclubatlas.The golf course is a blast to play.

Good luck this week from the other side of the state.

[John_Conley]

Doug, I have always heard terrific things about Black Creek.  The pros can complain all they want, but it isn't like the AAA Tour guys have had any trouble scoring there.  "These Guys Are Good Too" is an apt slogan.  With the toughened course I'm sure the cut line will be 142 or something.  Winning score -18.  Sheesh...you'd think the PGA Tour official could handle those kind of complaints.  "Most of the guys out here don't have a problem getting the ball in the hole."

[BCrosby]

Doug -

A 256 yard Biarritz makes perfect sense. In fact, given how far the Nike guys hit it today, that is short relative to the clubs used in CBM's day. It will certainly be fun to watch. Don't let the b#@*rds talk you out of it.

I only wish I could be there in person.

Bob

[Lester George]

Give that Super a raise!  Can you strectch it to 275 - 290?  If so, do it! 

The pros love the Biarritz at the Old White but it can only play to a max of 230 yards.

Lester

[Anthony Gray]

  Does this hole play firm enough that you can bounce onto the green?

  Anthony

[herrstein]

Well, we played the pro-am yesterday.
They put the pin in the swale.
The pros were on the back, almost; it was 238 to the pin.
Our pro was Scott Gardiner, defending champion.
He hit 3-iron, didn't get to the swale.
He loves the course, but does not like the 17th, it was clear. Many of them hate it, and now I know why: They have to hit a wood to get to the back. All of them do. It plays 275 to the back pin positions, and these guys need woods to do that.
It's also hard for them to figure out what to do with the gallery with the tee adjacent to the green. That's not a golf problem,as far as I am concerned.
I love it.
We need to put in one more tee to make it 300 to the back pins. Then we will have presented the original shot value of the Biarritz hole to the modern player.

[Anthony Gray]

  Do the pros feel like there is too much rub and chance with the hole? What other complaints other than the club selection.

  Anthony

[herrstein]

Well, the experiment is complete.
They never played the full yardage, back tee to a back pin. Final day they played the stock setup from years past: Pin middle of the back section, 12 feet from the left fringe. A 5 iron for most of these players, about a 215 yard shot.
I didn't see anyone make a par, of 8 players. There were some, of course, and at least one birdie. Over half of the players I saw hit right at the pin, "cooked" it a little, found themselves in the bunker left. From there it's next to impossible to get the ball within 10 feet.
I saw one player come up short of the swale; none in the swale. The player short three-putted, but not embarrassingly so.
One player in the right bunker made an 8; bladed it over the green into the hazard, then grounded his club.
The next day we always have "Play it like the Pros" Day, we all go play the course as it was the last day. My favorite day of the club calendar.
My 4some (including me) made three pars, the other made a bogey from the right bunker. I hit it about 20 feet- but none of us aimed at the pin.
I think the problem the Tour guys have with a hole like this is (with credit for the insight to an observant friend), most of them will have to manufacture a shot (as I must). I don't have a "stock" swing that will hit the shot needed to get my golf ball through the swale. I have to hit a "3-finger driver." I can't get my 3 wood over the swale, reliably, but a full driver goes over. So I have to bounce it in from the front. If the pros hit a stock shot, it stops; they have to take something off too much club.
They don't like to have to do that.
Plus, pace of play becomes an issue when the hole gets too difficult.
But it is just not that hard. I've made par on it every time I've played it back-to-back. But I like to hit shots. That's what makes it fun for me.
I don't think the pros will ever play the full length of the hole.
But that's OK by me; we didn't build it for them anyway!

[John_Conley]

Doug, congratulations on another fine event.

It's funny, we hear about these complaints from pros often.  The winner was a bazillion under, and two career rounds for most guys was still outside the cut line.  An interesting mindset, actually.  They've worked hard to become very good at golf.  Not because they want to be able to embrace challenges, we've found out it was to get good enough so they won't be challenged.

I'd love to get up there some day.  The pictures all look terrific.

[BCrosby]

"If the pros hit a stock shot, it stops; they have to take something off too much club.
They don't like to have to do that."

Doug -

Not sure I follow. Are you saying that the pros, to get it back to the back level, will not run a shot through the swale? So they fly the swale?  But given the club they have to hit into the shallow back tier, they are unable to hold the green with that shot? With the result being a lot of high scores?

And meanwhile more normal golfers like you and me will play the hole through the swale and end up scoring better?

Have I exhausted my alloted questions?

Anyhow, interesting observation.

Bob

[Bill Brightly]

Met bet is the pros, like many US amateurs, don't like the hole because it does not LOOK like all the other par threes they have played in their careers. The want to know the distance they need to carry the ball and don't want any part of running a ball through a swale. (UK players would not have this issue, IMO.)

I have a fair bit of experience with this attitude, having been Grounds Chair when we restored our Biarritz and added a new back tee so it plays 250-265. All the sticks still try to fly the ball to the back tier, even if they have to hit driver in the wind.  When the Met Am was played at my course I left work early to watch. I was psyched to see how a long line of top players would approach the hole. To my great disappointment, the MGA put the pin in front and used the middle tees! It was 7 iron for most guys... (An official told me they just wanted to get the guys around the course during qualifying.)

I have an idea to get guys to TRY to hit a Biarritz shot: at one of our member guest events, rather than a putting tournament, I want to have a Biarritz shot event. Bring all the entrants to the hole, each guy gets 3 shots, closest to the pin wins, but you MUST land the ball on the front section. What do you think?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I personally think it is a little too long. I think that may be ok for pros but for membership 190 to 220 is a better range.

[Bill Brightly]

I personally think it is a little too long. I think that may be ok for pros but for membership 190 to 220 is a better range.

Tiger, can you carry a ball 190-220? If yes, would you choose to fly the ball to the back tier? I can tell you from experience that the only people running the ball through the swale are people who MUST to reach the hole.  I am working on my biarritz shot, but I can't hit my dang 3-wood straight when I take a little off.

250 is NOT too long if you can carry the ball 210 or so.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Bill It all depends on how firm the green is. I would find it almost impossible to hold a driver on the back half. Ergo the there is no choice but to hit a low runner.   Yes I can hit a 5 wood 210 to real half the green or if wind strong hit a 3/4 3wood and run it back. I just think 250 takes the shot options away as well as the fun from this type of hole. I did have a hole in one at the Mountain Lake to a rear pin position. When the idea that 16 at cypress could be great, I thought that is stupid. any hole you are hitting a driver too doe snot need a divided green. It is hard enough just to hit a green witha  driver, especially over the ocean.

[herrstein]

To answer some of the questions, best I can: Many of the pros, and top tier amateurs, have to hit a three-quarter shot of some kind to make the ball run through the swale- it needs to be lower than "stock-" which is high for them. The green is plenty hard- but you can stop a shot if you loft it high. Some guys, even among the elites, have a hard time stopping a full driver on the back, though.
As to whether it's too long- this is the thinking- when Raynor/Banks/Macdonald built 225 yard Biarritz holes in 1920, almost no one could hit the ball that far. The hole was a bogey 4, more than a par 3. So my thought about how to present that shot value to the modern player is, the hole needs to be 300 to the back section. Maybe 305. I'm not making a judgment about whether the hole is too long or too hard or anything. No judgment about the hole's fairness. I am ONLY trying to present the shot value of a 225 yard (to the back section) hole to the modern player, with the swale, the steep and deep bunkers, and the rest of those Biarritz elements.
It's probably too short, really.

[Bill Brightly]

Doug,

You are absolutely right: the hole needs to be 280-310 for pros and top ams who can bomb the ball. I think there are three key elements to get the maximum shot value:

1) It must be long enough so they cant hit a normal full shot that is high enough to land softly.
2) It must be short enough that they fear landing on the green and bounding over.
3) The shot to the front requires a different swing, a lower ball flight, so the ball will roll down and up the swale.

For me, our black tee is perfect at 245-260. My normal well-hit 3 wood lands on the upslope and rolls back into the swale. My driver carries to the back, but if I hit it pure or with a slight draw, I am going long (and dead.) My 3 rescue or 5 wood carries the proper distance in the air, but goes too high and lands too soft to roll up the swale. So I am left with trying to hook my 3 rescue, or take a less than full 3-wood (or driver) and hit it low and straight: a Biarritz Shot that I just cannot master, especially when playing the black tees in club championship competition. So if you adjust those distances to "pro-length," 300 is about right. They would face the same problems I have, and be asked to hit a shot that most US pros don't normally practice.

[herrstein]

We must hit the ball about the same distance. The conundrum you describe is mine precisely at 258 to the middle of the swale.
Doug

[Bill Brightly]

We must hit the ball about the same distance. The conundrum you describe is mine precisely at 258 to the middle of the swale.
Doug

You are a little longer than me. 258 to the swale would actually allow me to hit full driver, I carry that 240 in the air.

Have you experimented with hitting a knocked down driver? I went out with our pro last year when no one was on the course. I took 12 knocked-down driver swings. Balls went hard left, short right, sliced pin high right...and one rolled over. Our pro took one swing, landed it 2/3 deep on the front portion, the ball rolled down the swale and up the swale, stopping beautifully in the middle of the green, and handed me back the driver!

[herrstein]

That's how I play it when the pin is back- "three-finger driver."