[Tim Gavrich]

...is it a flawed green?  I ask this question having seen the 16th at Hartford (CT) Golf Club (D. Ross/D. Emmet and others over time) a bunch of times this summer and noticing that the pin was cut in the back-right portion of the green.  The hole, a very reachable par five, allows an uphill run-up to a green canted hard from mid-left to back right.  So, the back-right pin is the one to which you can hit a runner and watch the ball track towards the pin if you do it right.  Obviously, pins cut further forward in the green don't allow for this kind of visual and shotmaking delight, so it makes the hole a notch less interesting when the pin isn't back-right.  So, the super and staff seem to put the pin there disproportionately often--not that that's wrong per se; it's just what they do.

What other notable holes are out there where one pin area on the green makes the hole a lot better than all the rest?  #9 at Yale really stands out, although any pin beyond the swale is way better than any pin short of the swale.  That's sort of a broad example.  What are some narrower ones?

[Adam Clayman]

Tim, I don't see how you can call it flawed. Every green would almost qualify otherwise. Unless it's a flatfeatureless one, where every pin would be benign.

Setup is key to enjoyment and challenge. That's why a 6-6-6 setup is advised.

As an I.e.. On the most recent Mountain Ridge outing, apparently there was a desire to highlight the great pin positions. This actually may have back fired, because the round was less balanced and enjoyable to many of the average players. The next day at Sleepy Hollow, the presentation was more balanced and all enjoyed it.

[michael damico]

Tim,

I cut cups at Oak Hill (another Ross course in the NE). Most of the time it was on the West, which is how I preferred it, but the one thing I noticed about those set of greens was the fact that they weren't designed to be cut at today's lengths. There might be the possibility that the guy settin' cups today doesn't necessarily have as many pinnable locations as say, maybe the guy in 1960.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

I would say no, because I design most greens for either a "Sunday Pin" or "Weekend Pin" (two equally interesting or difficult pin positions) with a lot of other, easier pins.  If all pins are tough, no one can step on the tee and say "Wow, tough pin today!"

I like the idea that on many, if not most, days, the green has some easier pin spots to mix and match with other holes on the course for the 6-6-6 rotation mentioned.  Also, define "good" pin positions?

For tournament play once a year?
For daily play (esp. on weekends to speed things up)
For Ladies Day?
For a wet day? (upper part of green for drainage)
For a hot/dry day? (near cart path to minimize traffic on green, or in a area better for a run up shot)

[michael damico]

Brother Shivas,

I agree with you, (not necessarily with all of the gimmicky part because a tough 'tucked away' pin will separate a smart golfer from the pack) but I think it's the indication of good interior contouring, which, I guess you could argue is the main characteristic of a great green.

[Tim Gavrich]

I think I muddled my meaning a little bit in my original post.

I didn't mean to say that that one pin on the 16th at Hartford is HARDER than the rest.  In fact, it might be the easiest pin position on the green, because one will be left with a wicked downhill putt less often than with most other pins on that green.

I meant to say that that pin position makes the hole MORE INTERESTING than do the rest (at least in my opinion).  Approach shots of any length are significantly more exciting to the back-right than to, say, a dead-front pin.  That was more my point.  Can we think of greens where one hole location makes the entire hole more INTERESTING (it could make it more difficult or, heck, easier, perhaps) than all the others?

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