News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
What would you have done differently at Old Head?
« on: January 13, 2002, 08:43:30 AM »
     In another thread, Tom Doak mentioned he was considered for the work to be done at Old Head. The general consensus seems to be it was a shame he wasn't hired.  :-/
    
      If you were given the property at The Old Head at Kinsdale what would you have done differently to improve its overall design?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

brad miller

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2002, 09:17:57 AM »
lost my @home email, will have a new one soon. played Old Head back during its first summer open, which was before I became interested in all this archie stuff, while it clearly is one of if not the most spectacular sites I have ever seen the golf itself didn't inspire. My best recollection is of a course that tried to be as dramatic as possible, which was in conflict with building the best course for the site. That being said, Kinsale is one great little town. Old Head is probably worth playing, assuming it fits one's program and is not at the expense of Ballybunion (old), Lahinch, RCD, Portrush..... Gene, sorry I can't add more specific comments that would begin to get at the heart of this matter.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Lack of ground game sinks the ship
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2002, 07:11:02 PM »
Gene,

That's a great, great question.

Firstly, to be fair, though spectacular, the rocky site had plenty of negatives include poor soil, little in the way of natural undulations (more broad slopes than anything else), and severe weather which makes holes along the cliffs an agronomic nightmare.

In thinking about it, the routing does not appear to be the culprit. The architect gets the player to the cliffs in well spaced intervals throughout the round on holes 2-4, 7, 12(!), 15-18. Of course, are they necessarily the best holes that the site had to offer? Perhaps/perhaps not - I don't know what land wasn't used but at least 9 of the 18 holes are memorably situated. Plus, the architect's use of the natural topography on holes 2, 4, 12, 15, and 17 is fine indeed.

Thus, the routing appears good enough in my book. However, beyond that crucial first hurdle, not much else works.

The clumsy use of mounding stick out on the broad slopes and are clearly unnatural and man-made, like the row of mounds down the length of the 10th hole  :-[ .

The greens and the slopes around the greens don't tie together well. The polar opposite is the Plantation Course at Kapalua where the golfer can use the surrounding land to help work the ball toward many of the hole locations. C&C created several front to back greens by allowing the greens to follow the broad slope of the land - why the architect didn't do the same at Old Head is a mystery.

Instead, the golfer is given one bland green complex after another as a target. The direct result is that the ground game is patently uninteresting here - which makes NO SENSE, given its windy location.

Plus in terms of strategy off the tee, I enjoy trying to hit the right shape shot on 2, 4, 12 (though they are all a similar draw) and I like the central hazard in the 14th fairway and trying to reach the 15th in one blow, but otherwise, do any of the other holes hold much strategic interest off the tee? I vote no.

Finally, while I appreciate all the views off the rock, the views on the rock are dullish, IMO. The bunkering is basic and there was no texture from the use of different grasses.

In a windy environment, the architect should give the player plenty of width and room to play. The player's thought process in analyzing the day's options and the route that he elects should vary from day to day, but that can only be the case if the holes enjoy a certain scale to them and if the holes are designed with the ground game in mind.

This was not the case at Old Head.

Thus, to answer your question, I would keep the generally routing but start over from there. I would re-do virtually every green complex, save for a couple like 2 and 4. The new green complexes would be low to the ground and the design would revolve around the ground game. The obvious desired result would be to make the holes/course more natural and engaging to play.

Cheers,

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2002, 09:18:48 PM »
Ran:

I wonder how John O'Conner would feel about your comments.  You seem to be saying that his priority, i.e.,  cliffside green locations, could have been accomplished while building a far more interesting course.  Maybe that would have prevented a quick rise and fall from the Top 100 lists.

Well, at least the cash register is ringing and most people, even the biggest critics, will agree one should see Old Head at least once in their life.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Tim Weiman

Ran Morrissett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2002, 05:26:52 AM »
Tim,

Is the cash register ringing? Are membership sales going well? Someone posted the opposite of that a few months back - who knows where the truth lies?

But you're right - I'm saying that there is no excuse for so many of the supporting cast holes (1,5,6,9, 13) being so boring. They could be on any course in the world and they aren't reflective in the least of their distinctive location.

Remember the owner's comments about wanting to be ranked in the world top 10 or higher  :) ? He will need a lot more engaging "inland" holes ala 3, 13, 14, and 16 at Pebble Beach to achieve that goal.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_D._Bernhardt

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2002, 06:52:38 AM »
Old Head deserves our attention for it will be a case study on substance versus beauty. It does not have both and is in the market place for the golfing public to make a decision about right now, not 30, 50 or 100 years ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom Doak

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2002, 06:55:11 AM »
Ran,

The cash register was certainly ringing when I last saw it, but that was 18 months ago when it was still basking in the limelight of top-100 status and being the Big New Thing.  I suspect it's doing better than you imply.  It does have a higher green fee than any other course in Ireland, which is bound to attract Americans.

I agree with Ran's comments about the greens, but not about bunkering.  First off, there was rock six inches below the vegetation throughout the site, and I've seen days on the Head which would remove most of the bunker sand on a normal course.  I don't think you could do cool bunkers there and expect them to last a season.

At one point I suggested to a friend that it should have been The Best Nine Hole Course in the World, but we both agreed that John O'Connor wouldn't want to hear that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2002, 02:12:55 PM »
Shivas-
The Dunes Club is in Michigan.

And yes it's pretty good.  I've heard some comments that there are more trees there than in the past.  The atmosphere is pretty awsome, if you can find the entrance.
Golf Digest ranked it in their top 100 this year, with no qualifier that it is only 9 holes.  
While Old Head might not have been a good enough site, does anyone think it is possible for a golf course with any number of holes other than 18 to be one of the top 10 in the world.
I believe it is possible, however unlikely.
Is there anyone who believes that to be a great course you need to be completely traditional and have 18?

And to keep relatively within the topic, how many holes could old head have had and not had an oinker in the bunch?
I don't know the total acreage.

mike
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:01 PM by -1 »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Tom Doak

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2002, 02:26:42 PM »
Is there anyone who believes a golf course has to be 18 holes??  Just 99.7% of the golf course owners of the world, and pretty much all of the raters, if you care about them.

The trouble with rating nine-hole courses is that you're not holding them to quite the same standard as 18's.  The people who criticize Pebble Beach focus on its weaker inland holes, but they only included them to get up to 18.

The Dunes is a great place, but I'm not on the bandwagon for its top-100 status.  Only about three of the holes have alternate tees which are significantly different.  I think Royal Worlington & Newmarket is a better nine.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2002, 02:30:30 PM »
Actually, the best 9-hole course in the world, BY FAR, is Muirfield.  Play the front nine twice and there is no better 18 holes in the world........
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mps

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2002, 02:51:52 PM »
Rich,

Play the front nine at Royal County Down, throw your clubs in the car & drive to Ballybunion-Old to play the back nine.  THAT would be the best 18 holes in golf!

By the way, aren't you afraid of being tossed out of Dornoch after putting Muirfield on top?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Rich_Goodale

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2002, 03:41:49 PM »
mps

Driving from Newcastle to Ballybunion between 9's is only recommended for the seriously teetotal.  It would take me at least 3-4 days, even if I had a chauffeur.  And, quite frankly, if I got to Ballybunion and somebody told me that I had to walk another mile from the clubhouse out to the 10th tee to start to complete my round, well, the Jameson's and Smithwick's would start to look very very good at that point in time.....

Vis a vis Dornoch, you must read my post of a year or so ago entitled something like: "We're number 13, We're number 13!!!!!", or one of the previous ones "Rankings!  We don't need no stinking rankings!!!"   Muirfield IS a "better" course than Dornoch, just as Shinnecock is a "better" course than NGLA, etc. ad infinitum.  Each of these, AND MANY MANY MORE!!!!! (is that enough emphasis....) help define what golf is.  In different ways to different people.  That is all that is important, at least to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

mps

Re: What would you have done differently at Old He
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2002, 03:47:59 PM »
Rich - I agree on all fronts.  But if you do get tossed out of RD, I'll take your spot - I'd rather play there than Muirfield any day. :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »