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mike_malone

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Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« on: August 24, 2011, 12:00:22 PM »
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=el

    I'm trying to begin a discussion at RG of a second green for #7 at Rolling Green. We have what looks like a proposal drawing for the course sometime after 1929 which shows the green moved to the rIght of #8 tees. Those are the tees on the left. I walked off the distance from the middle of #7 green and it is 100 yards uphill to #13 tee, the tee on the right.


 You guys who are better at manipulating google images might help me.
AKA Mayday

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2011, 12:58:59 PM »
That link has no location.  Give us a city to view.....

But, without seeing it, my  "standard" for the center of a tee from the center of a green varies a bit.

If the tee is right behind the green, I have gone with as little as 40 yards center to center (twice in 27 years) and 50 yards center to center far more often. 

For the tee on the left of the green, it would be a minimum of 60 yards center to center (if the tee was beyond the center point of the green) and 70 yards is probably better.  On the right, I would try to stick with 70 yards or more.

Not sure if you mean to build a new green, or a second green on the hole, a la some courses in Japan, or PV 8.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_malone

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2011, 01:11:08 PM »
 I hope some more competent guy will google map Rolling Green, focus on #7 green and pick up the #8 tee and #13 tees for viewing.
AKA Mayday

Kalen Braley

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2011, 01:42:57 PM »
I'd help out here but I haven't a clue how the holes appear in the routing.  Looking at the aerial on google maps, it shows 4 holes that could be the 1st tee.  :(


Here is a google link to the aerial though..

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=rolling+green+golf+club&hl=en&ll=39.945682,-75.337533&spn=0.006416,0.015653&t=h&z=17&vpsrc=6

Joe Bausch

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2011, 01:57:13 PM »
Try this Mayday (yards are accurate maybe to +/- a few yards, I would think):

« Last Edit: August 24, 2011, 03:33:59 PM by Joe Bausch »
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

michael damico

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2011, 02:10:38 PM »
mike malone...why the discussion of constructing a new green? additional length? safety?
"without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
                                                                -fz

Doug Braunsdorf

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2011, 02:42:03 PM »
Mike-

  A few questions for you. 

1.  Would this be an additional green, similar to the 8th (I think) at PV?
2.  Is the hill too steep there for a green-how would the hill affect the second green and potential lines of play? 
3.  Is that the MorrPaul bunker I see in the aerial short of the 7th green current aerial, and would it be replicated again? 
"Never approach a bull from the front, a horse from the rear, or a fool from any direction."

mike_malone

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2011, 03:25:38 PM »
 Good job Joe, probably should label #8 tee on the left and #13 tee on the right.

     My thinking is to investigate adding a second green----the Blue green!---because the #7 tee cannot be moved back. The original intent on this hole has always fascinated me because, as Joe shows, there is plently of room to the #13 tee and it is up hill. My guess as to why Flynn chose to put the green in its present location is the knob of a hill which sits just short of the green and makes a three shotter instead of a long par four in his day. If a green were placed up there it would a challenging shot of at least 225 yards because the fairway crossing creek is 150 from the existing green.

  Doug,

    The approach would be blind. I'd be interested in Flynn info on other sites where he may have done something like this.

As for the MorrPaul bunker, I told those dunderheads it wasn't needed and it probably wouldn't be built like they wanted.

   I think a bunker more to the right of that which could act as an aiming point for the blue green and catch errant shots directed to the present green would be neat.

   
   Some have expressed concern that shots intended for the second green could end up on the existing green.While this is possible it is unlikely. People can't keep balls on that green now and they are trying to ;D

       What I'm wondering is what i are the factors to consider when thinking of a second green.

     We have received some guidance against doing it; I'm not trying to be a pain here. It just seems to make sense intuitively.

 And , after all, this is a golf architecture discussion group!
AKA Mayday

Joe Bausch

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2011, 03:35:43 PM »
Figure has been updated:

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2011, 03:40:46 PM »
I don't have a real good photo showing the area in the Google figure, but this shot is from short of the 7th green.  I think Mayday is looking for something up and even further to the right in this pic.

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2011, 08:17:19 AM »
 Joe,

   Yesterday I came up with a new idea---tees over by the new green; one championship and one blue. If you could widen out the google view with another shot to show #8 up to the creek that would be great. I'm off to all day meetings.
AKA Mayday

Adam Clayman

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2011, 08:24:38 AM »
Dunderheads? I thought they were Quakers?

MayDay, That slope looks awfully useful. I'm having trouble recalling. Is it? Ala 5(?) at Ardmore?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2011, 10:23:27 AM »
Mayday,

Shouldn't the answer to your question be dependent upon what the club is trying to accomplish ?

Do they desire a second green ala PV, or one like TCC puts into play for their composite routing ?

Bill_McBride

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Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2011, 01:08:31 PM »
I had the same question as Pat.   What is the point of the second green?

If the current seventh is small and suffers from over wear, perhaps it could be tastefully enlarged.  There may be an old aerial that shows it has shrunk over the years. 

That slope makes for a very appealing ground game approach to the present green. 

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Help please----how far away should a second green be? New
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2011, 02:54:18 PM »
 The reason, in my mind at least, is to create a new challenge for the modern distances . The better players would have the same shot as the average players have (should have, except for the stupid bunker) now----a runup to a down sloping green---THE MOST FUN SHOT ON THE WHOLE COURSE!. Also , the land is fairly similar. The existing green should be preserved; it's fabulous!

   As one who has studied the course obsessively I always wondered why he didn't use the extra land there. Of course I defer to Flynn ( and no one else) and tried to figure why. In fact, it may be the only place on the course where the greensite wasn't determined by the land and the routing.

    Jay Siegel, I'm told, used to recommend the change when he played there. We have evidence of some sort of "recommendation for changes" from 1929/30 that shows the green being moved.

    Ok   I'll say it       I HAD A TALK WITH FLYNN AND HE SAID DO IT!
« Last Edit: August 25, 2011, 07:37:32 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

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