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Niall C

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If I wanted to play the best example.....
« on: August 21, 2011, 10:25:22 AM »
...of an ODG's work, where would I go ? For example, if I wanted to play the best example of Willie Park Jnrs work, would it be Sunningdale, or is there too much Colt in that now. And what about Colt, is Swinley Forest his best work, or has it been tampered with as well ?

What about MacKenzie ? Are his early UK designs different from his Aussie ones, which in turn are different from his American ones, and if so where are there unadulterated examples of each ?

Niall

Bill_McBride

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2011, 11:26:29 AM »
...of an ODG's work, where would I go ? For example, if I wanted to play the best example of Willie Park Jnrs work, would it be Sunningdale, or is there too much Colt in that now. And what about Colt, is Swinley Forest his best work, or has it been tampered with as well ?

What about MacKenzie ? Are his early UK designs different from his Aussie ones, which in turn are different from his American ones, and if so where are there unadulterated examples of each ?

Niall

Huntercombe for Park, pretty much unchanged.  

The greens at Mackenzie's US courses are consistently more contoured than those at Alwoodley.   But Alwoodley is pretty relevant with no major changes by other architects.

Sean_A

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2011, 06:48:36 PM »
I think impossible to narrow down the essence of such a prolific designer such as Colt in one course.  Its better to break him down into categories.

There are many rebuilds/part designs Colt was involved in, but I think his most enduring major redesign has to be either Muirfield or Portrush - both done at about the same time and thus a great comparative pair to getting a feel of where Colt was at concerning championship golf.  Since Muirfield is mostly famous for its bunkers and supposedly original routing (an idea which I believe Colt likely stole from Park Jr) I am inclined to plop for PORTRUSH if there can be only one.  Sticking with the Portrush theme, the VALLEY LINKS could well be the Colt to see in terms of an original and virgin links design.  Though one may be better served going to Holland to peraps find a more worthy example. 

Talking heathland I think St Georges Hill and Swinley Forest are the likely candidates.  Though I think St Georges Hill is the stronger overall course, Colt was justly famous for his short holes and so SWINLEY FOREST must be the one course to see. 

In terms of parkland golf I would select HARBORNE.  It is remarkable how different his green complex shaping is compared to an early work such as Swinley and later links work. 

Finally, I have to say NORTHAMPTONSHIRE CO is a Colt must see only because it is SO MUCH MORE MINIMALIST than his other work.

Ciao 
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David_Tepper

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2011, 09:00:33 PM »
Niall -

What about Mackenzie at Duff House Royal, just down the road?
Maybe not "the best" Mackenzie, but the greens are supposed to be pretty good.


DT

Dan Herrmann

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2011, 09:34:49 AM »
William Flynn - Philadelphia, Pennsylvania USA :)

Mark Pearce

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2011, 09:41:47 AM »
Sean,

Is Muirfield enough of a Colt course to qualify?  I'm never sure what there is Colt and what is the work of others. 

Strangely, much as I like Swinley I never think it's as typical of Colt as some of his "lesser" courses.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Sean_A

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2011, 11:09:32 AM »
Mark

I was under the impression that the majority of Muirfield is Colt with perhaps some usage of bones and a few changes by Simpson which stuck.  Muirfield is a remarkable design which I could see being built today - it hasn't dated in the least.  

I agree about Swinley - it is a Colt stand alone.  I think of the course as exactly what Colt wanted to build with very few restrictions.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 22, 2011, 12:56:21 PM by Sean Arble »
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Anthony Gray

Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2011, 11:23:03 AM »


  Ross would be Seminole. The routing is excellent and the greens more true to Ross than Pinehurst.

  Anthony

 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I wanted to play the best example..... New
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2011, 12:43:42 PM »
Mark

I was under the impression that the vast majority of Muirfield is Colt with perhaps some usage of bones and a few changes by Simpson which stuck.  Muirfield is a remarkable design which I could see being built today - it hasn't dated in the least.  

I agree about Swinley - it is a Colt stand alone.  I think of the course as exactly what Colt wanted to build with very few restrictions.

Ciao

Sean,

Clearly the man to speak to when it comes to Colt. The first question that springs to my mind, and hence me starting this thread, is how much of a course is still down to the original designer ? I suspect that over 80 to 100 years very few courses will have come through completely untouched or even lightly touched.

The second question your post raises is what is a better example to judge an architect by, is it a completely new routing or a redesign. I suspect most would go with the new design. And if you are judging him on new designs, how do you distinguish between a new design on a relatively flat bit of land and virgin linksland which is full of natural features. Is the measure of his ability what he can do with nothing ie flat land, where it should certainly be easier to see his ideas, as opposed to a great site ?

Not sure I know the answer to that one myself but you have given me enough to go for Colt, thats for sure.

Niall
« Last Edit: August 23, 2011, 01:01:13 PM by Niall Carlton »

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2011, 12:47:08 PM »
Niall -

What about Mackenzie at Duff House Royal, just down the road?
Maybe not "the best" Mackenzie, but the greens are supposed to be pretty good.


DT

David,

See my post to Sean on Colt. At Duff House Royal, you can certainly see the way MacKenzie creates strategy through his bunkering and green orientation. I wopuld suggest at Duff House Royal his greens aren't neaqrly as contoured as somewhere like Pitreavie but then thats in keeping with the general topography. The other thing at Duff House is that he built up his greens but disguised it very well. Well worth a look see.

Niall

Sean_A

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2011, 01:28:33 PM »
Mark

I was under the impression that the vast majority of Muirfield is Colt with perhaps some usage of bones and a few changes by Simpson which stuck.  Muirfield is a remarkable design which I could see being built today - it hasn't dated in the least.  

I agree about Swinley - it is a Colt stand alone.  I think of the course as exactly what Colt wanted to build with very few restrictions.

Ciao

Sean,

Clearly the man to speak to when it comes to Colt. The first question that springs to my mind, and hence me starting this thread, is how much of a course is still down to the original designer ? I suspect that over 80 to 100 years very few courses will have come through completely untouched or even lightly touched.

The second question your post raises is what is a better example to judge an architect by, is it a completely new routing or a redesign. I suspect most would go with the new design. And if you are judging him on new designs, how do you distinguish between a new design on a relatively flat bit of land and virgin linksland which is full of natural features. Is the measure of his ability what he can do with nothing ie flat land, where it should certainly be easier to see his ideas, as opposed to a great site ?

Not sure I know the answer to that one myself but you have given me enough to go for Colt, thats for sure.

Niall

Niall

I am a far cry from a Colt expert, just a fan of his incredibly highly consistent work.

I think there are as many as 13 Colt holes at Muirfield, but I am sure on the front nine some corridors from the previous designs were used.  The course had been drastically lengthened by at least 1000 yards from the Old Tom original by the time Colt showed up.  Simpson removed many dozens of bunkers, added others, tightened some entries to greens, but did not make any routing alterations.  It would be cool to know which bunkers are Simpson's. 

For an architetct like Colt, who worked on many original designs and did anything from minor to major alterations on many championship,  minor championship and well known inland courses that, I don't see how one couldn't partly evaluate his work based on redesigns.  I think his redesign work may have been his best strength.  He seemed to know what to discard and what to keep in helping to give courses (or retain) an identity of their own.  On the other hand, wih modest budgets Colt was able to builld countless courses, most of which will never see the light of GolfClubAtlas day (I am trying to change that!), but which are in the main very good (say 4-6 Doak Scale).  I absolutely think of Colt as the father of modern inland architecture from the perspective of asserting the most influence on modern design principles.  His direct counterpart and in the States from the perspective of carrying that on that lineage was, imo, Ross.   

Colt was willing to try all sorts of stuff on all sorts of land.  I couldn't begin to try and pin point specific traits or tendencies based on the type of land other than perhaps with bunkering.   

Ciao       
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Steve Kline

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Re: If I wanted to play the best example.....
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2011, 04:23:15 PM »
To get the best of example of Ross shouldn't you go to a New England course on a constrained property? I'm not saying those are his best courses as I didn't think the question was asking that. But Ross didn't build many courses like Seminole - on the water, windy site, lots of bunkers (at least in the pictures I saw). Seminole is certainly one of Ross' greatest but maybe not his most representative.