Castle Course

[Adrian_Stiff]

I just happened to be close to St Andrews yesterday so I visited the Old Course and had a look at it in reverse amongst other things, I also thought I should pay a visit to The Castle Course, though I did not look at very much. The Eden, Old, New & Jubilee were all pretty busy, a caddie told me its about a 50-50 call if you make or miss the ballott right now. Castle Course was very quiet, the positives I drew was that the basic landscaping looked like it had been there forever and did not look fake. I was pretty shocked on how steep the land was and I guess at some stage there must be some tough uphillers. The negative to me was the greens, I looked at three greens and two of them should be started again in my opinion. I think from some highs you could not keep the ball on the green, this to me is very ABC. Did I just see a rouge one or is this pretty continous? It seemed to me these greens could barely stimp past 8. Am I far out? I can see how people like this course and how they dont. Certainly looks pretty to my eye, though the next door Fairmount had flatter areas amongst the blow outs that still looked quite nice.

[Kyle Henderson]

Adrian,

I concur with your observations. DMK tried to make a big impression with a very small budget.  No one will be bored by the Castle Course, even if they find the greens to be offensively overdone, For medal play it is not.

Some pics and discussion from a few years ago can be viewed here:
http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,40204.0/

[Kin Britton]

I know this topic has probably been beat to death and this is just my opinion, but it is the worst golf course I have played in three trips to Scotland.  Not all of it is due to the course/green design but it certainly is a big part of it.  The negatives are:

Cost- At 130 pounds it is almost the same cost as TOC.  I would play New, Jubilee, Lundin, Leven, Elie, and Crail for significantly less before I played it again.

Experience- It's Kingsbarns without a great golf course.  I did not get a sense of playing golf in Scotland as there is no club etc.  At least Kingsbarns has a great course to go with the American feel of the day

Links Golf- Why go all that way to not play links golf.  It was a potato farm...and probably a much better potato farm.  If I am not going to play links go to Duke's or go inland to Blairgowrie

Positive- It has some cool views of St Andrews.

Again, all my personal opinion but I cannot for see a circumstance where I would play it again.

[Tom Kelly]

Adrian

The other thread probably mentions this and answers your question but surprisingly there is only really one tough up hill slog of a hole all round, the 11th. The 12th is up hill a bit as well, but one of the best holes on the course and although long doesn't feel like a dull climb. The routing has been done fairly cleverly imo and avoids at all costs slogging up and down the hill again and again. Most of the holes manage to work their way across or down the hill, with short climbs to tees making up the height without feeling long or forced. The 11th because of the hill is not the best hole, but not too bad. The 1st is also straight up hill but not too severe and fairly short so again doesn't feel like a forced climb.

As for the greens the other thread tells it all and it has been well documented....they are really really hilly. All of the greens are as about as steep as each other, but the worst part about them is the run-off/surround areas. They effect the play more than the putting imo. It is really easy to hit a good shot and see it run a yard or two too far right or left, long or short and end up 20 yards away or more in some cases. I think they may have got a bit "excited" with their sandbox....

As regards the green speed last year they had them stimping at between 9 and 10 (absolute max) for most of the summer and they can cope at that....just. Obviously the pin positions are limited at this speed but they are limited anyway with those slopes. The greens can actually be quite fun if your in the right mood, but as Kyle states;

"For medal play it is not."

Most definitely true!!!



Kin

I completely understand your point and have seen and heard many people say the same. But not everyone who plays the course is in Scotland as a tourist purely there to experience "real links golf". If you want that, just go down to the West Sands. The Castle Course offers something completely different and is actually starting to get more and more popular with the locals (not all, some still say it is the devil!!). It is a different experience for most over here. As the locals have found out the course also actually seems to improve with more play, you get to know a few lines and areas of green to avoid and you take it less seriously. With a more relaxed view it can actually be great fun. In general though I agree with you it is not the best course out there and far too expensive for what it is. The New for £60 or so is far better value and I would choose a round there instead any day, though the views on a clear day make up for a substantial amount of the cost, I haven't seen many better...Stunning! The high fees are there to recover the costs of construction..The Links Trust is a charity and needs the money after a large outlay on the course.

As for the "club" aspect, none of the St Andrews courses offer that as the clubs are all separate to the links, so you end up in the Links or Eden Clubhouses full of tourists. I actually think the Castle clubhouse is fantastic and one of the better points about the course! The views are brilliant and sitting out on the patio over looking the 9th and 18th and looking down to St Andrews is a great place to be.

P.s. Personally I would rather play the Castle than the Dukes.

[Adrian_Stiff]

BTW - The sand is quite pinkish now and looks natural.

I would still like to play it

[Tom Kelly]

BTW - The sand is quite pinkish now and looks natural.

I would still like to play it

Go with a relaxed mind and have fun!

[Niall C]

BTW - The sand is quite pinkish now and looks natural.

I would still like to play it

So would I. I've likewise walked a few holes and seen some of the greens and had a go at putting up onto them and the detour that a poorly hit putt took was quite exceptional which is I guess part of the fun. Certainly not one to keep a score on.

Kyle

I doubt they had a small budget at all. In UK terms they shifted a hell of a lot of dirt and there are good size greens out there so hard to see where they were scimping on money.

Niall

[Anthony Gray]

  THe greens are severe. The complaint is that a well placed approach may bounce in an odd direction. The greens do have alot of rub to them. There are a few three putts out there.



  Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

If the three greens I saw are a similar reflection of the other 15, then in my opinion this course will have to have its greens rebuilt. From what I saw you could not play proper golf, several people have said to me its 'Mickey Mouse'. I find it hard to say it is not.

[Tom Kelly]

If the three greens I saw are a similar reflection of the other 15, then in my opinion this course will have to have its greens rebuilt. From what I saw you could not play proper golf, several people have said to me its 'Mickey Mouse'. I find it hard to say it is not.

Do you know which greens you saw? Or was it just a quick pop your head over the wall job?!

They have already changed a few of the greens and surrounds. I know the 9th and 10th had changes done and there were plans to do the 4th, 14th and 17th over last and this winter I believe, though I haven't seen the results yet and I guess the weather might have hampered their plans a bit? It sounded like the 4th was quite a big change, enlarging the green at the back left to provide a bigger 'flatter' area for more pins. They also moved the green-side bunker on 4 (front left) a year or two ago further back from the green and turfed what previously was the bunker as too many people were going in the bunker and were unable to get the ball out onto the green without it running back in. Instead now you have a horrible bump and run or putt up the slope which usually ends up back at your feet!

I believe nearly all the changes so far complete and planned are not so much to do with the actual putting being too hard, but making it easier to hit and hold the greens in the first place and to provide more pin placements.

[Anthony Gray]

If the three greens I saw are a similar reflection of the other 15, then in my opinion this course will have to have its greens rebuilt. From what I saw you could not play proper golf, several people have said to me its 'Mickey Mouse'. I find it hard to say it is not.

Do you know which greens you saw? Or was it just a quick pop your head over the wall job?!

They have already changed a few of the greens and surrounds. I know the 9th and 10th had changes done and there were plans to do the 4th, 14th and 17th over last and this winter I believe, though I haven't seen the results yet and I guess the weather might have hampered their plans a bit? It sounded like the 4th was quite a big change, enlarging the green at the back left to provide a bigger 'flatter' area for more pins. They also moved the green-side bunker on 4 (front left) a year or two ago further back from the green and turfed what previously was the bunker as too many people were going in the bunker and were unable to get the ball out onto the green without it running back in. Instead now you have a horrible bump and run or putt up the slope which usually ends up back at your feet!

I believe nearly all the changes so far complete and planned are not so much to do with the actual putting being too hard, but making it easier to hit and hold the greens in the first place and to provide more pin placements.

  I thought it was in DMK's contract that the course could not be changed for a couple of years.

  Anthony

[Adrian_Stiff]

Tom - No I dont know the numbers, they were the ones near the entrance road that leads to the clubhouse. I agree the greens are hard to find with those run offs. I was there for 20 minutes only so only saw a tiny bit. To be honest I want to be a defender of the CC but almost everything I read from others has some negatives. I have yet to hear a report that it is perfection. What is perfection is the view towards the old town.
Anthony - That would seem a strange clause both to insert and for the other party to sign.

[Tom Kelly]

Anthony

I am not sure about this, but I know Paul Kimber who was the lead associate on site during the construction for DMK (or so I am told) is advising on the changes now. He has left DMK and set up on his own now so not sure if DMK is 'officially' doing the changes?


Adrian

You probably saw the 14th which is possibly the most severe green to putt on on the whole course, first green on the right walking down the access road? There are/were plans to "iron" it out a bit. And then you probably also saw the 4th which is the first green on the left of the access road if walking down the hill?

If so you have seen the two most extreme greens!!

Tom

[Ally Mcintosh]

Anthony

I am not sure about this, but I know Paul Kimber who was the lead associate on site during the construction for DMK (or so I am told) is advising on the changes now. He has left DMK and set up on his own now so not sure if DMK is 'officially' doing the changes?


Adrian

You probably saw the 14th which is possibly the most severe green to putt on on the whole course, first green on the right walking down the access road? There are/were plans to "iron" it out a bit. And then you probably also saw the 4th which is the first green on the left of the access road if walking down the hill?

If so you have seen the two most extreme greens!!

Tom

On my two plays and one walk, I found the greens fun... Overcooked compared to anything else I've seen... But why not?

I heard that they'd made changes on the approach to 5 which worries me... I thought that a great par-5...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Roll Up, Roll Up, Roll Up.

Come to St Andrews, The Home of that Royal & Ancient Game of Golf, see the course at the heart of the game TOC, face The New and Jubilee, even experience what was once another great course The Eden.

Do not forget that St Andrews caters for all even the kids with its latest 7th Course, the Disney styled Castle Course with its helter-skelter jelly mould fake contours to show just what St Andrews and golf is all about  or should that read is becoming.

The once great game and Town are being re moulded into something alien to all its traditional, and for what, just simple money.

The Castle course should be returned to its natural farmland and money spent trying to bring the other questionable newish courses in line with the great game of Scottish golf, not just another identical international model that’s some believe are worthy of being called a golf course.

Standards have been allowed to fall, we need to show the world what the Home of Golf is about and I do not mean it should reflect Holes from other courses, but be unique to itself, its surroundings and environment. There is no need for fake anything at St Andrews, but the need to understand golf and the sort of land it can be played upon. Strip back to bedrock and reshape the land is not what St Andrews stands for IHMO – its stand for the beating heart of the game, its traditions and the real way to play golf by Walking and Thinking the game letting people experience the joy of this type of game..

Players on TOC at St Andrews, now needs, well for the most part the services of a caddie, yet during my early years one was expected to look to the course and play it. My father used caddies as a method of carrying his bag, not for  suggestions, after all as he said ‘who is playing the blood game’. Life and experience comes from learning first hand, making mistakes, understanding ones shortfall and moving on. One seldom learns if it is all dished up on a plate requiring no thought, just the action of hitting the ball. The future is in the word, which in itself defines the game of golf ‘Traditions’ – learnt and acquired over many, many years of learning. But of course there are many out there who know better and discard the values that are the heart and soul, if not the Spirit of the Game.

No need to rush Guys, the circus is still in town, you can see and play the Castle and the other courses, like our multi culture society St Andrews offers a multi-culture golfing experience – but why when it’s the traditions of the game that people spend good money to come and see as well as experience.

It certainly is a Mad, Mad, Mad World we live in.  

Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

  If the purpose of The Castle Course was to give the golfer a different experience than the courses downtown than it succeded. Its still fun, only nontraditional. The greens are not conducive to low scoring.

  Anthony

[Tom_Doak]

Several of us got a tour of the Castle Course from Paul Kimber 18 months ago, during the World Architects' Forum at St. Andrews.

The greens which had been changed were done to try and stop so many balls from going off the green and down into the hollows around them [often 8-12 feet below the green surface].  They took the swales coming through the greens and filled up the bottoms a bit and built something like a porch at the end in the hope that balls would stop there.

That was by far the most severe aspect of the course ... not only having your ball go off the green, but the recovery shot back up from below.  Of course, that's after they also took out the shaggy small mounds which had been installed in the landing areas of many fairways.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

Not bad for a course just turned 3 years old and cost the People a whole load of money via the Links Trust. Not what one expects at the Home of Golf, lessons have not been learnt by some people. Just think of all the money being spent to try and make The Castle a golf Course.

Anthony

 St Andrews is the home of golf, have you travelled thousands of miles to sample something that might be just down the road from where you live, I would say no you come for the experience and to see how the game bloomed out from this little country. But you are presented with a course broken before it even started, compromised for poor location and pressured charge high Green Fees to try to recoup the build cost, or should I say pay for the on-going running repairs - wow, gives you confidence in Scottish Golf. Most of the new courses are not of the standard or quality that I would have expected for this little town, let alone Fife.

It’s just piss poor performance with Joe Public paying the end bill as usual, sorry, it’s just not right.

Melvyn

[Anthony Gray]

  Melvyn,

  How does Kingsbarns measure up? Or is the jury still out?

  Anthony

[Melvyn Morrow]

Anthony

Kingsbarn, although a good course has more overseas influence than pure Scottish, but certainly in that category near the head of it class, if you agree with such things.

Scotland and the rest of the UK should have courses suitable to their surroundings and reflect the quality of the game played in that particular part of the world. Why import ideas when we have enough of our own. – I fear the reason for that is that we are trying to please just too many people by watering down our golf so others feel at home on so called international courses.

I spent my early youth up to my 30’s playing new courses, looking for the out of the way course, while others went to TOC, I would seek out Crail, Elie, Leslie, Windermere, Killin and many, many more wanting the experience the joy of finding my own hidden gem. New shots to try, new test and thrill of navigating into the unknown, Hell Anthony that has to be the best experience one gets unless you are good enough to win The Open at St Andrews. All these are home grown courses, not hidden but certainly not on the tourist list be they from the UK or Overseas. Sometimes its just an easy game of no stress I seek,but enjoyable due to that simple factor, other times its like playing chess against a more than competent player, every shot has to count and coming up against a stone wall (a real stone wall) is just great fun.

I would hate to think that if I travelled say to the USA and found many TOC type courses I would not be that impressed, I have gone there to play the American courses, to taste your game and traditions, I may well like or dislike it but my judgement would be on your home grown courses not international courses that are a muchness to each other or multi-template holes of the likes of the Redan etc I might as well have stayed at home and played these Holes first hand.

I think that The Castle has done little for golf apart to employing a few people, it has not taken design to the next level, it has not left a firm statement, but just looks like a Disneyland mock feature and knowing everything is man made, does not do it for me.     

Melvyn

[Adrian_Stiff]

Melvyn - I think just because a golf course is man made is not a fair reason to dislike, almost all new courses are man made. My mind was fairly open to the CC and I saw it this Tuesday. To be honest its a steep ol bit of land and if its not overly strenous to get up those hills with the routing, a great job has been done. The views from that land across the town and out to sea are fabulous and have been harnessed into the design, for that reason and those views I would say its a great site. If St Andrews needed another course then it probably is the next best site. St Andrews rapidly expanded to 3 courses late last century, I am guessing The Eden was 1920, Straythnum & Balgove some 50 years later so its no real suprise that 40 years later it needs another.

[Tom Kelly]

Anthony

I am not sure about this, but I know Paul Kimber who was the lead associate on site during the construction for DMK (or so I am told) is advising on the changes now. He has left DMK and set up on his own now so not sure if DMK is 'officially' doing the changes?


Adrian

You probably saw the 14th which is possibly the most severe green to putt on on the whole course, first green on the right walking down the access road? There are/were plans to "iron" it out a bit. And then you probably also saw the 4th which is the first green on the left of the access road if walking down the hill?

If so you have seen the two most extreme greens!!

Tom

On my two plays and one walk, I found the greens fun... Overcooked compared to anything else I've seen... But why not?

I heard that they'd made changes on the approach to 5 which worries me... I thought that a great par-5...

I believe the only change on 5 was to move the 'spill-off'/Don King whatever you want to call it at the front right of the green out a bit to make the entrance to the green slightly wider. I think they thought it was too penal so close to a very narrow green entrance. The change also made the back right of the green visible from further back up the fairway so the pins back there aren't completely blind. Not a massive change but it has improved the hole imo.

Tom D you are completely right in saying most of the changes so far have been to the surrounds of the greens and not so much the greens themselves. I think a few of the newer changes are also hoping to add a few pin positions on 4, 14 and 17 as well as soften the run-off areas.

As for the "Don Kings" that have been taken out, personally I think a few more should go or at least be made less penal. The one in the middle of the 6th fairway especially. It is completely blind from the tee and I've seen many well hit tee shots end up in almost unplayable lies in there.