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Chris Buie

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Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« on: February 03, 2013, 02:26:37 PM »
I was going to point out some things about the evolutionary process No. 2 passed through - but it might be more interesting to just present the images for a parlour type game and let you have a go at it. If you're interested, that is.
Feel free to try to guess the thinking behind the changes, as well.

Bottom left in the following photo is the 18th fairway.


1922


1923


1939

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 03:39:16 PM »
My reaction to #5 in the third image is dumbfounded awestrucknicity...what is that evil bend?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 03:53:09 PM »
Chris - Its amazing how the look and bunker of #7 got to be so bad over the years. The last picture you posted looks great, as does the current version that C&C worked on.... Also so glad they eliminated all of those split fairways and found the current #'s 3, 4, and 5. That is one of the most interesting parts of the property.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 03:54:49 PM »
I'm intrigued by the split fairways. They seem to work well at that course in New Jersey. What would have been the lay of the land in the split? I imagine it would have been playable ground.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Chris Buie

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 04:51:24 PM »
Ronald, that bend you see is today's 7th.
Jaeger, yes it was great he incorporated that area. It's a much better course because of that.
Consider the 18th tee shot and bunker. What do you think of that?
Also, there's a bit of archeology with the original 3rd green.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 05:26:03 PM »
Chris - What angle was 18 played at back then? Looks like it could have 2 tees based on the tree clearing... 1 straight up the gut behind 17 green, and another more from the right of 17 green, where it plays like an elbow w the hazard at an angle. ... Seems like C&C built some tees in that area as well.

Also.. based on that same pic w 18... How long has there been housing on the golf property?

Chris Buie

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course New
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 11:10:56 PM »
Jaeger, that's the main point - what was the tee shot on 18?
When I first saw the BW photo it looked to me like there was an angle for a tee shot from near the middle of 17. I'd never heard about that so it was hard to be sure. However, I was given the 1923 map recently where it shows the tee was there for a while. He also built that large bunker to go with that shot. You can determine that because the 1922 map does not have it.
I would guess he ultimately moved the 18th tee back to where it is so that the 17th green was on a plateau - and a much better hole. I doubt he abandoned the angled tee shot to 18 because he didn't like it. I bet he liked it a lot since it appears he put that large bunker there for that purpose. He also went so far as to move the 17th green so he could incorporate that tee shot in 1923. He was keen on that tee shot. I would guess he only abandoned it because it wouldn't work with how 17 played best - and the fact that the straight tee shot worked just fine. But I do believe he preferred the angled shot - considering all he went through to place it there - if briefly.
It's not a big thing. But it does illustrate a larger point about how much Ross worked that course through the years. There was a great deal of that large and small - and that was the key to it reaching the level it has.
Having the time and resources and owner which made it possible for such experimentation is pretty rare. The entire 40+ years all 4 courses where undergoing various improvements. After he passed away that experimental atmosphere continued. The only problem with that was that Ross experiments and modifications were of a strikingly different quality that those that thought it was ok to tamper with the intricate and thoughtful handiwork Ross left behind.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:38:07 PM by Chris Buie »

Jeb Bearer

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 11:16:15 PM »
Fascinating example of the value of taking the time to get it right, as well as accepting a slightly lesser shot on one hole for the greater good of the entire course. I wonder how many architects besides Ross would have had the vision and courage to make what was obviously a very difficult change there on 18.

Chris Buie

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Re: Some Evolutionary Curios of No. 2 Course
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 11:32:39 PM »
You got that right Jeb. I would imagine that's a part of the architectural story that hasn't been discussed a huge amount. Finding a hole you really like but having to temper it so that the piece as a whole would shine brighter.
I found the archeology of the 3rd green complex quite interesting as well. You can see that in both photos. There is a lot of that around Pinehurst. It's an obscure point of interest, I suppose. One day I'll get around to discussing the fine Ross course that's under...Forest Creek.
Also in the images you can see 15 was shortened and 16 lengthened - another aspect of the decades long refinement.

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