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Kalen Braley

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2011, 10:05:03 AM »
Kalen: When the strategy is a 6 inning "quality start" followed by a series of pitching changes based upon the premise that a left handed pitcher has to pitch to a left handed batter, etc., the game gets long and boring. No one in baseball is going to admit it but I still have my belief that part of the reason for the low scoring is the ball. Maybe they want to showcase the pitchers as the hitters don't seem to be getting any better.  And how about the pitching signs from the dugout - that sure speeds up the game and makes it more exciting.

Jerry,

I certainly agree with the 1st part of the statement.  Changing pitchers based on pitch counts has certainly become a science as opposed to managers just having a gut feeling of when his guy was done.

I don't think the ball is any different than it has been in recent years....especially when you look at how home runs and every other "power" category came way down after actually enforcing drug testing with real consequences.  A lot of these guys were juicing and now that they ain't, we are seeing long fly outs instead of 380 foot opposite field home runs.  I think its as simple as that.

David Kelly

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2011, 01:39:00 PM »
No one in baseball is going to admit it but I still have my belief that part of the reason for the low scoring is the ball. Maybe they want to showcase the pitchers as the hitters don't seem to be getting any better. 

Again, if low scoring is boring and drives away fans what could possibly be the motive for MLB to change the ball to make low scoring a reality?

And since scoring has been going down incrementally for the last five years do you think that MLB has gradually changed the ball each year?

Is there a test that shows balls from this season are deader than last season?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Shane Wright

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2011, 01:42:17 PM »
Kalen: When the strategy is a 6 inning "quality start" followed by a series of pitching changes based upon the premise that a left handed pitcher has to pitch to a left handed batter, etc., the game gets long and boring. No one in baseball is going to admit it but I still have my belief that part of the reason for the low scoring is the ball. Maybe they want to showcase the pitchers as the hitters don't seem to be getting any better.  And how about the pitching signs from the dugout - that sure speeds up the game and makes it more exciting.

I agree that starting pitchers should be going longer into games (to consider it a quality start) to make it more exciting. But the only way that is happening is if they are throwing less pitches which means quicker outs, which means lower scoring games.....which you think is boring.  You obviously were a hitter.  

No one is going to admit the ball change because it has nothing to do with anything.  The balls have not changed.

And who is taking pitching signs from the dugout.  What team are you watching.  I have never seen this anywhere.  Maybe occasionally and usually it is to set up the defense, not the pitch.  

And finally, the lower scoring games are because of the PED decrease.  It was way more rampant than you think.  But it is also because the pitchers have more thorough scouting reports on the hitters, and baseball STILL doesn't test for speed/stimulants. This is why you see so many pitchers throwing 93-97 these days.  It is getting tougher and tougher for hitters.

David Kelly

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #28 on: July 28, 2011, 02:33:02 PM »
Strikeouts are at a historic high so somehow Bud Selig and his evil minions have changed the ball so that it is repels contact.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jason Connor

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #29 on: July 28, 2011, 03:29:26 PM »
Jerry,

I think you might be biased though. While the baseball purists love a 2-1 shutout, you admit you don't.  That's fine.

But you're a golf purist.  Is it possible that the non-purists (who you figure make up the majority of the TV-watching and tournament-attending public) don't care to see tricky shots into a green or difficult recovery shots?

They'd rather see 340 yard drives and wedges to 3 feet.

Not sure?  But I think that's possible.

We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

JMEvensky

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #30 on: July 28, 2011, 04:02:05 PM »
Jerry,

I think you might be biased though. While the baseball purists love a 2-1 shutout, you admit you don't.  That's fine.

But you're a golf purist.  Is it possible that the non-purists (who you figure make up the majority of the TV-watching and tournament-attending public) don't care to see tricky shots into a green or difficult recovery shots?

They'd rather see 340 yard drives and wedges to 3 feet.

Not sure?  But I think that's possible.



As a hard core purist of each sport,I think you're right.

For all the purists on this board screaming about how golf has gone to hell,there are plenty of websites where you can find "golfers" wondering about why this stuff even matters to them.

The difference,IMO,is that none of us plays baseball anymore.It's purely a spectator sport.But each of us tends to look at PGA Tour golf through our own golf games.This makes about as much sense as thinking that a Red Sox/Yankee game is somehow related to slo pitch softball.

Bill Seitz

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #31 on: July 28, 2011, 05:10:00 PM »
Kalen: When the strategy is a 6 inning "quality start" followed by a series of pitching changes based upon the premise that a left handed pitcher has to pitch to a left handed batter, etc., the game gets long and boring. No one in baseball is going to admit it but I still have my belief that part of the reason for the low scoring is the ball. Maybe they want to showcase the pitchers as the hitters don't seem to be getting any better.  And how about the pitching signs from the dugout - that sure speeds up the game and makes it more exciting.

There's lots of reasons scoring is down, and I don't think anyone can really point to one as the key culprit.  Many have been mentioned in this thread.  There's no evidence that MLB will allow to reach the public about the ball, so I'll start from the assumption that the ball is the same now as it was a number of years ago, but off the top of my head:

1) Increased testing and penalties for PEDs, not so much for steroids and/or HGH, for which the effect are still inconclusive, but more because of the inclusion of amphetamines in the list of banned substances.  Players have been popping greenies like candy for decades.  That's a big no-no now.  And the restriction on amphetamines affects every day players a lot more than it affects starters who go once every five days.  I think this is a really underrated issue, as it doesn't have the sex-appeal of steroid use.

2) As mentioned previously, increased technology in scouting.  Some of this is related to defensive positioning, but we're also better at evaluating and compensating players for their defensive ability (defense has long been considered the next market inefficiency).  Some of has to do with better scouting of platoon splits.  Teams are also investing better in worldwide scouting, and bringing in more good players (more on this below).

3) Random variation.  Eras change.  Defense and offense have a general balance point, but a few seasons isn't really enough data to find it.  Just as there are periods in golf when Americans dominate, and periods where Europeans dominate, there are eras in baseball when pitchers dominate, and era when hitters dominate.

4) The talent pool has caught up to expansion.  After every expansion in baseball, offense has exploded.  We're well beyond that period now, and the pitching depth has reasserted itself.  There are lot more Asians in MLB than there were 15 years ago, Australia is being scouted more heavily, and teams are spending a lot more on their Latin American academies, from which players are not subject to the entry draft. 

I understand that some people may not like low scoring games.  But the idea that one needs to "hope" that there are more than three runs scored, while hyperbolic, is also a bit ridiculous.  The Angels have the best pitching in the AL, and the third worst offense, and their game average seven runs per.  Sometimes people just lose interest in sports.  I don't enjoy watching golf as much anymore if it's not a major, and Saturdays are especially boring since no one is going to be crowned that day.  Personally, I've found that as I've gotten older, my interest in my favorite teams has increased, while my interest in watching the sport overall have decreased.  I can't watch a baseball or hockey game between two teams I don't care about (unless I'm physically present at the game), but I rarely miss an Angels game on TV (well, now on my iPad), or an LA Kings game.  Some of that has to do with the fact that I can see all those games now.  When I was kid, there were less than half the games available, and sometimes national broadcasts were the only things to watch.  But I think too often people find that they just naturally lose interest in a sport and look for reasons why, instead of just chalking it up to the fact that people just change.  It happens.

And besides, there was a really low scoring game in Cleveland yesterday that had me on the edge of my seat for the final few innings yesterday afternoon.  First no-hit complete game from an Angels pitcher that I've ever seen.

David Kelly

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #32 on: July 28, 2011, 06:02:43 PM »
Bill,

I'm the opposite, the older I get the less interested I am in my teams and the more I am interested in baseball as a whole.  However I am the same as you in that watching golf is boring to me and other than majors I can't watch it for more than a few minutes without changing the channel.

This chart shows the cyclical nature of the number of runs scored in MLB. It is a couple of years old and so far this season offense has really dipped - down to 1992 levels.  The orange area represents the dead ball era.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Jerry Kluger

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Re: What can golf learn from baseball?
« Reply #33 on: July 28, 2011, 06:31:18 PM »
Is baseball more interesting with less scoring - my point is that I don't believe that it is. What part of a low scoring game is exciting or interesting - maybe a good defensive play or a third strike but the rest is boring - the first two strikes aren't exciting and routine fly balls and ground balls aren't exciting.  I have no problem getting up during an inning to go and get something to eat or drink. 

On the other hand, if the golf ball is dialed back and the players face more difficult shots that will be more exciting.

Let me give you an example: I marshaled the 14th hole at Congressional.  The hole narrows down in the driving area and most players either laid back to around 190 yards or they often wound up in the rough at about 165 yards.  They then faced an significantly uphill shot to a two tier green with deep bunkers on either side.  Let me tell you - they weren't regularly knocking it close and there were some really tough recovery shots - it was fun to watch.  I think dialing the ball back to force them to play those shots with even longer clubs will make the game more interesting to watch.

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