Ocatillo Phoenix

[Gib_Papazian]

There is a horrible bias against Ted Robinson and his "Aquatic Presentations," but a friend whose opinion I respect says this 27 hole facility is well done and worth a look.

We are going down there at the end of February and I am interested if anyone in the Treehouse has an opinion about this place.

(Or any other Hidden Gems)    

[Craig Van Egmond]

Gib,
       I have played the course twice, the first time it was kind of fun, the second time you start to notice how much all the holes are alike and you wonder if you already played it that round.

       There are a lot of better courses to play in my book. But there are also worse.

Take it for what you will.

[Craig Van Egmond]

2 more things. Its Ocotillo and water comes into play on 23 of 27 holes.

[Coral_Ridge]

If you have the time play Troon North, Las Sendas, and Gold Canyon.  From first hand experience all three of these courses are memorable and fun.  As you probably know golf is very expensive in the Phoenix area during the winter months.  Especially Troon North.  Rates go way down at this golfing destination in the hot summer months.

[Josh Taylor]

Gib,

Get in contact with me prior to coming down and maybe we could arrange a game together.

I have only lived in Scottsdale for 10 months, but in my opinion there are only 4 courses that I have played that I would recommend to any architecture enthusiastic visitor.

Talking Stick North, may as well play South while there
Apache Stronghold (not even close to Scottsdale at all but who cares, its awesome)
Desert Forest (unfortunately its very private)

I have heard good things about Forest Highlands and will be playing there once the snow has gone, but cant comment as yet.

[Jeff_Stettner]

Coral:
Did you not find the glaring differences between the older holes and the newer ones at Gold Canyon to be striking, and not in a good way? I haven't played the course; rather, I took a tour of it with the super, and while I very much appreciated their hospitality, I was less than impressed by the course. What did you like about it?
I remember an awkward routing, too much water, and go-go eighties holes mixed with "softer" nineties holes.

[Bill_McBride]

Gib --- Apache Stronghold.  I'm dying for a trip out there.  I know it's not cool, but I enjoyed TPC of Scottsdale a lot when I played it a few years ago (the course where they play the Phoenix Open).   If you can get on Gainey Ranch, go for it.  I liked it a lot for a desert setting course.
Regards,
Bill McBride

[Coral_Ridge]

Jeff Stettner-

Gold Canyon is just plain beautiful.  It is not hard and it is not long.  But it was in good condition when I played it and most holes were distinct from each other.  The feel of the Sonoran Desert is so prevalent, you feel like you are in the middle of a John Wayne western as you look out over great distances.  I have only played it once and am not too familiar with its history, but I look forward to playing it again.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Gib,
I'm assuming you are coming to Arizona to check out some desert golf, and if your looking for desert golf, please go up to Desert Mountain and play Chiricawa (sp?). My guess is your not a big Nicklaus fan, but he got it right at this course. All you desert golf degraders, remember all courses built in the last 15 years in AZ are limited to 90 acres of turf, if your not into target golf, this is not the place to be. Everyone loves Apache Stronghold and Talking Stick (myself included) but remember they were not restricted by turf acreage or water use because they are on Indian Land. Granted some desert golf is terrible, and many of the course have a sameness; if you were led blindfolded into the middle of most of them, you wouldn't be able to tell them apart. But, some are good, and the new one at DM is one of the best I've seen. I'm just waiting for a Doak or a C & C to build one on a turf restricted site to see what they would come up with.

Having said all that, if you can only play once, go to Apache Stronghold.

[Gib_Papazian]

Gentlemen:

Sorry, in my haste I did not list the courses I have seen already:

Apache Stronghold - yowza.

T.S. North - Excellent by any measure.

T.S. South - An uneven effort with some good stuff, but overall a bit generic.

Boulders North - Decent, entertaining, but nothing outstanding.

Boulders South - Visual overload, in a good way. Lacking any strategic content, but still has the "Old Head" appeal for pure beauty. Kind of an Arizona version of Arrowhead in Colorado.

Troon North - Ridiculously over-rated but still worth a play because the basic strategies kept our interest.

TPC - Sorry Bill. Thought it was a complete disappointment.

The Pointe at Tapatio - Quirk in spades. Some good, some silly. A collection of indifferent holes interspersed with some absolutly original conceptions. I like it, but I am a bit strange to begin with.

Stonecreek - Many name changes over the years, it is adjacent to the Embassy Suites. Pete Dye - softened by Art Hills. A collection of holes at best, but we played it several time because the "fun factor" is ther even if it lack cohesion. Not great, not good, but we are going to play it again so maybe wierd can be acceptable.

Biltmore - Both courses are nothing more than brainless amusement. The original reminds me of Sunol (not the Cypress, the long boring one). A complete waste of time. What used to be called the "Links" at Biltmore was okay if the beer was cold and you had a good match going.

I won't bother with the 3 or 4 throwaway courses I played with customers over the years. Yeech.

I suppose it is like anywhere else, quality is where you find it.        

[Matt_Ward]

Gib:

For what it's worth I would give Ocatillo a pass. I agree with Craig Edgmand -- the course and its particular style does wear thin very quickly. H2O is in plentiful supply -- it almost plays like a course from Florida.

I agree with some of the other choices already suggested -- Apache Stronghold is a gem and I only hope with a new superintendent the course conditions will improve from my initial visit in 2000.

Don mentioned Chirichua at Desert Mountain and I'm a big fan of the course -- I'd also recommend the Geronimo Course, but sadly management made some changes to the course that have taken it down just a bit -- it's still a wonderful course to play. Both are private but accessible.

A couple of other courses of note that aren't bad include include Fire Rock in Fountain Hills, Sun Ridge Canyon and Eagle Mountain. All have interesting terrain and only Fire Rock is private. I'm not touting any for sainthood, but they're worth a look. I also like some of the holes at the 27-hole layout at Kierland in Scottsdale which is available to the public and  designed by Scott Miller I believe.

Hope this helps ...

[Doug Wright]

Gib,

Seems like we've plowed this ground before (did you visit Phoenix last year?), but I'd second Matt's view on Sunridge Canyon (Keith Foster) and throw in Dove Valley Ranch before Eagle Mountain. Remember the RTJ II thread? It reminded me that RTJ II's Dove Valley Ranch ain't bad at all. These are the ones I'd recommend after TS North and Apache.

All The Best,

[Doug Wright]

Hey Matt we're tied at 123 posts. Let the race to Doyenhood begin....

[Craig Van Egmond]

Gib,

       If you want some really good RTJ Jr. then you must play Las Sendas.   Also Longbow is a very enjoyable course for reasonable amount of money.  Then Whirlwind a Gary Panks course is a worthy effort.