Desert Golf - Spongy & Slow at 115 degrees.

[Ryan Farrow]

I would like to hear from an agronomist or superintendent from the southwest with experience in Hot/Dry conditions.

Its understandable for a course in a tropical region or in the northeast with heavy rainfall and poor drainage to be too wet, but what is the reason for a slogfest in Phoenix when it has not rained in 2 months and between 85-115 degrees every day?

All 3 of the rounds I played in the past 2 weeks (2 of which, managed by Troon) 1 on a reservation (with no water restrictions) have been on terrible playing conditions. These are some of the softest greens I have ever played on, huge 1 inch ball marks, no roll in the fairways. And one of the courses had fairways roped off because of standing water, from irrigation! Lift Clean and Place would have been in play for all 3 in a tournament. Why is this? Is this necessary to keep the turf alive? Transitioning from winter overseed? Or are the golf course superintendents here really that bad?

I'm confused, and at the point of lobbying local politicians to put water restrictions on all golf courses here, because all I see is a waste of our most important natural resource. WATER!

Someone please help explain this to me.

[Tom Yost]

It's a shame really.  Don't know where you played, but I'm aware that most Troon managed courses maintain for the green look over any playability considerations.  Talking Stick North, which I find to be one of the superior designs in the valley, suffers from a tendency to be kept too soft.  Grayhawk, and the Raven at S. Mountain are two others (not Troon) that are always mud ball producers from my experience.

I played Longbow today and it was delightfully firm and fast as always. 

[Kalen Braley]

Ryan,

When living in Utah where daily highs regularly reached 100 degrees, I also encountered this same thing.

Not so much on the fairways, but certainly the greens of many courses in the area had very wet greens.  My only guess was that they would saturate them in the morning in hopes of not losing them by the end of the day.  Certainly one would think they could monitor this better so they weren't still sloggy at 4 PM in the afternoon, but then again...budgets are minimal, and wages are notoriously low in Utah so I'm guessing they don't have the best in the biz working there.

Spring and Fall golf was always peak playing season in the area...when temps are usually under 75 or 80.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ryan - its an abomination. I'm completely serious. I couldn't give a sh-t how many so-called 'quality' golf courses are out there...they are all absurdities, all ugly bloated proof of how insatiable and idiotic human wants can be. Literally drowning hundreds of acres of grass, in the middle of a desert in the middle of summer!? What a f-cking disgrace! The BS justifications and rationales and complaints have gone on for about 6 decades too long now -- and the self-indulgence has long ago gotten sickening. If a person can't make a living in the golf industry without building/maintaining golf courses in the desert, he/she should find another line of work.

Peter 

[Tony_Chapman]

Ryan - its an abomination. I'm completely serious. I couldn't give a sh-t how many so-called 'quality' golf courses are out there...they are all absurdities, all ugly bloated proof of how insatiable and idiotic human wants can be. Literally drowning hundreds of acres of grass, in the middle of a desert in the middle of summer!? What a f-cking disgrace! The BS justifications and rationales and complaints have gone on for about 6 decades too long now -- and the self-indulgence has long ago gotten sickening. If a person can't make a living in the golf industry without building/maintaining golf courses in the desert, he/she should find another line of work.

Peter 

Peter -- How do you really feel about it? 

[Don_Mahaffey]

All of those golf courses Ryan played in PHX use recycled water. Water that years ago was released down the desert washes is now sold to golf course at a very high price and is a HUGE money maker for the municipalities.
AZ has the strictest water restrictions in the nation on the use of ground water.



Ryan, are all those wonderful golf courses your building in Chine using recycled water? Are you lobbying for water restrictions over there?

[Colin Macqueen]

Peter,
I am sure you are not suffering from delirium tremens as you are, I think, generally moderate in all things.  However your recent wee rant has most certainly made me think you may have imbibed a wee dram or two too many. But of course many a clear insight is gathered when one in is in a hallucinatory state and you have just recently had a crystal clear vision and are right on the money.
Keeping the grass alive is one thing but saturating it to almost drowning levels is simply wasteful and stupid. The mantra used to be minimum watering, minimum fertilisation and maximum aeration. Have the basics changed so much that this is now passe?  I don’t think so.
I thoroughly concur with the rant,
Cheers Colin

[Ryan Farrow]

Don, do you care to answer the question, as someone who actually worked in this profession, in this state?

Yes, Toon's AZ courses use treated waste water, but not all of the courses I have played in AZ use treated waste water.... lets not kid ourselves, there is quite a bit of infrastructure that needs built to provide a course with treated waste water and many courses still use drinking water. Just last year Phoenix was proposing to pay courses to use less water.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Ryan,
Which of the three course you played don't use recycled water.

I think the infrastructure would surprise you. I left AZ 9 years ago, so they've done more since then, but in Tucson they had pipe from the waste water plant to all the courses within the city as well as up to Dove Mountain. Even the older "grandfathered" courses like Skylinks and the CC were converting to waste water at $490/acre foot at that time.

In PHX, all of the courses within the city are on reclaimed with the exception of a few older courses like Orange Tree and maybe a few of the really old CC. There was waste water being used at Desert Mountain, to give you an idea of how far the web stretches.

Get out into the rural areas and there is a lot less reclaimed used, but a lot less golf as well. So, unless you talking about playing courses out in the country most of the courses you've played in AZ are on the reclaimed water web, which tells me they are way ahead of you with your desire to restrict the use of potable water.

This is the most difficult time of year in the desert. Your trying to heal from transition, it's brutally hot, and you've had no help from mother nature for many, many months. Once the monsoon season hits and you get a few flushing rains it gets easier.
Although the reclaimed water is treated, it still high in bicarbs and sodium. When you irrigate for months in high heat with no flushing rains you build up the salts in the soil and it takes more water to dilute them. Its a downward cycle that only starts over when a flushing rain, like a summer monsoon t-storm, resets the soil. Having said all that, I have no idea why those course where so wet. They sounded pretty bad, although the roped off areas are usually a result of an irrigation failure, (break, stuck head...etc) rather then simply running the heads until you make a lake.

So, did I answer your question? If so, please answer mine. Are you a conservationist here in the US and in China? Are you using any recycled water with all those courses your building? What process are you using over there to reduce inputs. If I were to act like you and just fire away, I'd have to say it sure looks like you guys like to go over the top with your approach, and I don't see how that matches your attitude expressed here.

[Mike Hamilton]

Ryan,
Which of the three course you played don't use recycled water.

I think the infrastructure would surprise you. I left AZ 9 years ago, so they've done more since then, but in Tucson they had pipe from the waste water plant to all the courses within the city as well as up to Dove Mountain. Even the older "grandfathered" courses like Skylinks and the CC were converting to waste water at $490/acre foot at that time.

In PHX, all of the courses within the city are on reclaimed with the exception of a few older courses like Orange Tree and maybe a few of the really old CC. There was waste water being used at Desert Mountain, to give you an idea of how far the web stretches.

Get out into the rural areas and there is a lot less reclaimed used, but a lot less golf as well. So, unless you talking about playing courses out in the country most of the courses you've played in AZ are on the reclaimed water web, which tells me they are way ahead of you with your desire to restrict the use of potable water.

This is the most difficult time of year in the desert. Your trying to heal from transition, it's brutally hot, and you've had no help from mother nature for many, many months. Once the monsoon season hits and you get a few flushing rains it gets easier.
Although the reclaimed water is treated, it still high in bicarbs and sodium. When you irrigate for months in high heat with no flushing rains you build up the salts in the soil and it takes more water to dilute them. Its a downward cycle that only starts over when a flushing rain, like a summer monsoon t-storm, resets the soil. Having said all that, I have no idea why those course where so wet. They sounded pretty bad, although the roped off areas are usually a result of an irrigation failure, (break, stuck head...etc) rather then simply running the heads until you make a lake.

So, did I answer your question? If so, please answer mine. Are you a conservationist here in the US and in China? Are you using any recycled water with all those courses your building? What process are you using over there to reduce inputs. If I were to act like you and just fire away, I'd have to say it sure looks like you guys like to go over the top with your approach, and I don't see how that matches your attitude expressed here.

Don,

Thanks for this reply.  I played two rounds over the past 10 days or so here in Central Virginia and walked away thinking that we've hit the "mushy season".  I played at Mattaponi Springs a few days ago as a single and late in the round an employee scooting around in a cart asked how things were going.  I told him OK except for putting.  The greens were exceptionally slow.  He said they were just trying to keep things from burning out.  I found myself ~50 feet above the hole on one large green early in the round putting significantly downhill and off a plateau.  I four putted, amazed at how hard it was to get the ball downhill.

But rather than blast superintendants who are, I'm sure, just trying to keep from losing greens (as some did last summer) when we hit stretches of 100+ days,  I asked myself are there any folks working standards for particular climates (hot here in the summer) and soils (clay) that are certainly not ideal.

Also in reading this thread regarding courses built in less than ideal conditions

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,48756.0.html

to what extent ideal conditions are even possible here especially in the summer.  

Would be interested is seeing some agronomic input on this.

Mike

[Peter Pallotta]

Colin - I was intemperate in my remarks; I appreciate you trying to draw something of value from them. I usually try to approach things with a more open/level mind. But the image that Ryan painted really did seem preposterous to me - so 'un-golfy' in so many ways. I can't help imagining the thrifty old Scots drawing thoughtfully on their pipes and shaking their heads: "And what game would they be playing there in the swamp?" 

Peter

[Ryan Farrow]

Don my only question was if there was an agronomic reason for keeping the soils saturated like they are this time of year. I didn't see any heads running in the afternoon and was not sure if they just flood the course in the AM, so they don't have to water in the afternoon to keep the course from burning alive.

I have no problem jumping on superintendents for over watering, at the end of the day, its a golf course, and has to function as one. In the US, it would be safe to say 90% of the courses I play are lift-clean place conditions. That is not golf, in my opinion.

As for your question, I do live/plan on living in Arizona in the future. I would like to have drinking water, in the future. I would like to play golf under acceptably firm conditions. I don't think that makes me a conservationist.

Don, do you really want to compare 16,000 courses in the US to 500 in a developing country called China? If sewage isn't pumped directly into a river, stream, or lake, that would be an accomplishment. Trust me, if water ever becomes a problem, golf courses will be the first ones shut off.

[Dave Givnish]

Ryan

There is an agronomic reason.  The superintendent is trying to create enough humidity to get the Bermuda growing before the monsoon hits.  Bermuda needs heat and humidity to grow. Once that comes - probably within the next two weeks - they will basically shut down the water at the Troon courses and you'll have much better playing conditions.

There are apparently two approaches to the rye-to-Bermuda transition.  One is to starve everything now and then soak it once the monsoons come.  The other is the above approach.  I've seen both used and think that the latter produces much more playable conditions through the transition -- but I'm not an agronomist.

Hope that helps.

Dave

[Don_Mahaffey]

I have no problem jumping on superintendents for over watering, at the end of the day, its a golf course, and has to function as one. In the US, it would be safe to say 90% of the courses I play are lift-clean place conditions. That is not golf, in my opinion.

As for your question, I do live/plan on living in Arizona in the future. I would like to have drinking water, in the future. I would like to play golf under acceptably firm conditions. I don't think that makes me a conservationist.

Don, do you really want to compare 16,000 courses in the US to 500 in a developing country called China? If sewage isn't pumped directly into a river, stream, or lake, that would be an accomplishment. Trust me, if water ever becomes a problem, golf courses will be the first ones shut off.

Ryan, you need to do a little research if you’re truly concerned about drinking water. Golf is not the problem.
As for  China, I was not comparing anything, just asking if you are a conservationist only when a consumer, or one at work as well. I think you answered my question.

[Todd Bell]

I know this is taboo on here but, what if the majority of golfers are willing to pay a premium for soft lush conditions with 1" ball marks.  Just the messenger.   

[Ryan Farrow]

Ryan

There is an agronomic reason.  The superintendent is trying to create enough humidity to get the Bermuda growing before the monsoon hits.  Bermuda needs heat and humidity to grow. Once that comes - probably within the next two weeks - they will basically shut down the water at the Troon courses and you'll have much better playing conditions.

There are apparently two approaches to the rye-to-Bermuda transition.  One is to starve everything now and then soak it once the monsoons come.  The other is the above approach.  I've seen both used and think that the latter produces much more playable conditions through the transition -- but I'm not an agronomist.

Hope that helps.

Dave

Thanks Dave, appreciate your answer. Certain courses in the valley always seem to be a little too wet for my liking. But in the past few weeks it has really been on the extreme end, especially with the weather. I knew it had to be a tough time and was just surprised it was even possible for courses to be this saturated in these weather conditions.

[Scott Weersing]

I believe that when the temperature does not drop below 80 degrees at night, then the greens are threatened. So greens have to be watered heavily so as to not burn out. The lack of a cool temperature does not allow the green to recover.

Here in Virginia Beach, we are in the soft green season where greens are like dart boards. We had a great May and June where temperatures were moderate and greens were very firm. It was fun to try to search for a ball mark. But now in July and August, we will have soft greens and even worse, soft fringes. So no more bouncing the ball in when the pin is in the front.

[Rob Rigg]

I noticed that the courses are VERY wet in the AM and playing pretty F&F in the afternoon.

We usually play at Talking Stick in the aft and the morning dousing has evaporated by then and you get some role. Played TSS late last week in the morning and it was pretty soggy - especially around the greens.

I think they are just doing what Dave said - getting ready for the monsoon season and making sure that the bermuda gets started in the right direction.

About a month ago a lot of courses around PHX were starting to brown out really nicely - hopefully they'll be like that again in late July and August after the rains come through.

[Dave Givnish]

Monsoons have started.  We had about 1/2" in Carefree yesterday and expect to get some more most of the next few days.  I played this morning.  The roughs were a bit greener than they were Saturday and I suspect that they will be fully green by this weekend.

Rob - we've been getting the heavy watering done around 4 or 4:30 in the morning.  Playing in the afternoon at Talking Stick can be much cooler than in the morning.  Hope that you didn't get caught in the dust storm yesterday.

Scott - we don't have the high humidity you do.  We whine about 40% humidity in the worst part of monsoon season.  I'd much rather play in 110 degree/20% humidity weather out here than in 95 degree/90% humidity in Virginia.  It has to be a lot easier on the green superintendent here.  The only green side fan I can remember seeing in Arizona is at Ventana Canyon.