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Bart Bradley

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Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« on: June 08, 2011, 07:41:58 PM »
Just returned from a fun trip and took a few photos of this beauty:  # 4 129 yards at Brancaster on the Eastern coast of England.

I've heard that Mr. Bahto states that this is the inspiration for the MacRaynor "short" holes.  Ran's profile of Brancaster mentions this same idea but with less certainty?  What do you all think of the hole?  And is this the inspiration for the short?




A slightly closer view:



Bart
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Mac Plumart

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 08:08:31 PM »
I don't know if that is the inspiration or not.  But I like it.
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 08:20:17 PM »
hazard (sand) followed by hazard (wall)...food for thought...
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Tim Martin

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2011, 09:53:28 PM »
Bart-Very cool hole and I love the pot bunkers in front.
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John_Cullum

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2011, 11:04:10 AM »
I only know this because I looked at page1 of the Chronological Order of NGLA thread just to see how long it took that thread to become the fiasco that it now is.

It looks quite clear that McDonald thought very highly of the short hole at St Andrews and modeled NGLA's short hole after it
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James Boon

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 11:26:44 AM »
Bart,

I've always understood it to be Macdonald's inspiration based predominantly on George Bahto's excellent book.

Here's a previous discussion on the Brancaster related to Macdonald as well as a photo tour of the rest of the course:
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41930.0.html
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46901.0.html

Interesting to see that they've turned the one bunker across the front into 3 little pot bunkers?

Cheers,

James
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Mark McKeever

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 11:54:35 AM »
Looks neat.  Any pictures of the putting surface?

Mark
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Niall C

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2011, 02:28:05 PM »
Bart

The short hole at NGLA was based on the 11th at TOC according to an article by HJ Whigham in 1909. He went onto say in the article that the NGLA hole was better than the hole at TOC because at TOC you could simply putt onto the green whereas at NGLA you were required to get over a water hazard off the tee. Not sure what Dr Mackenzie would have thought of that idea, actually I think I have pretty good idea. Either way, perhaps MacDonald got the water hazard idea from Brancaster ?

Not sure what the inspiration was for later short holes, presumably the 11th TOC as well ?

Niall
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Brad LeClair

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2011, 02:43:50 PM »
Niall,

forgive me if i'm mistaken but are you confusing "Short" with "Eden"?  "Short" does not have water in front of the green.

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Niall C

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 02:54:54 PM »
Brad

The hole on NGLA I was referring to was the 4th (in 1909) at 160 yards. Thats the one HJW referred to as a copy of the 11th at TOC. Am I getting mixed up on what is generally referred to as a CBM Short hole ?

Niall
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Keith OHalloran

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 03:05:33 PM »
Niall,
The confusion lies in the switching of the nines. The 4th in 1909 is currently the 13th. The quote refers to the Eden and not the short. The Short is currently the 6th, and in 1909 it would have been 15.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 03:11:49 PM »
Quote from: Niall Carlton on June 09, 2011, 02:28:05 PM
Bart

The short hole at NGLA was based on the 11th at TOC according to an article by HJ Whigham in 1909. He went onto say in the article that the NGLA hole was better than the hole at TOC because at TOC you could simply putt onto the green whereas at NGLA you were required to get over a water hazard off the tee.


Niall,

You're confusing the "EDEN" hole with the short hole.

The "EDEN" green services the 7th and 11th holes at TOC and is NOT the model/template for CBM's short, # 6 at NGLA.

Not sure what Dr Mackenzie would have thought of that idea, actually I think I have pretty good idea. Either way, perhaps MacDonald got the water hazard idea from Brancaster ?

Not sure what the inspiration was for later short holes, presumably the 11th TOC as well ?

Niall
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 03:13:51 PM »
Bart,

It's amazing what context and predisposition does to one's persective.

Had you said that the hole pictured was a Fazio hole, it would have been villified by the "tree house"

Instead, it's being lionized.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 03:25:06 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on June 09, 2011, 03:13:51 PM
Bart,

It's amazing what context and predisposition does to one's persective.

Had you said that the hole pictured was a Fazio hole, it would have been villified by the "tree house"

Instead, it's being lionized.

Isn't the question really, "Would Fazio (or most any other modern architect) build a hole like this today?"
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 03:34:28 PM »
Bill,

Certainly Pete Dye would.
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Bill_McBride

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2011, 03:49:48 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on June 09, 2011, 03:34:28 PM
Bill,

Certainly Pete Dye would.

Good point!

One thing I don't like about the hole is the almost perfectly horizontal top line of the sleepers.  A bit of raggedness would soften the look.

Old Mac has a couple of spots that have some of that look in a very good way, particularly the back wall of the Hell bunker on #6.
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DMoriarty

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2011, 11:08:41 PM »
Circa 1912 at Brancaster.


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George_Bahto

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2011, 11:12:14 PM »
Macdonald originally credited the 5th at Brancaster as the inspiration for his Short but in later writings he sort of retreated from that and talked of the 8th at TOC as the inspiration - I think it would be fair they both had their influence on 6-NGLA
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DMoriarty

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Re: Macdonald's inspiration for the "short"?
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2011, 11:18:27 PM »
George,

Would you agree that outside of holes named for a great hole abroad (Sahara, Road, Eden, Alps, Redan) the influences are much more conceptual and categorical, and while CBM may have mentioned a particular hole, other holes and ideas may have influenced him as well?
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