[Tim Nugent]

Just wondering, if money was an issue, why would they BUY a new fleet of carts instead of leasing them. Then it would be an operating expense, not a capital expense.  I know it's a Peter vs Paul issue but when perception is reality... a half million is still a half million.  With $1+ mil for irrigation and who knows how much for a Maint. Bldg. (muni architects never skimp) plus tearing down the clubhouse - that's probably more than if one was to build, just the course, from scratch. I agree the old clubhouse had design character and should have been left to impart a sense of history to the Pap.
Still, it seems somewhere, the budgeting process was screwed up.  BTW, who did the design work?

[Forrest Richardson]

Tim — I do not have any photos, sorry.

Maintenance building? None was built in this recent work. It is the same old building (as far as I know) that was constructed in 1962. They did build a cart building, range building and restroom/snack building. I agree, tearing down the Dave Shoulder designed clubhouse was a big error.

I cannot get an accurate accounting, but I believe the total $$ outlaid for the work at Papago, over the past 2 years, is somewhere between $9,000,000 and $10,500,000. According to my records, Forrest Richardson & Associates could have built 2.5 NEW golf courses with that budget — maybe 3 if the land was ideal. I do know that the work involved some site preparation (tearing down the old clubhouse) and other work, but I am still at a loss to know where all that money went...

Beyond our Master Plan work several years ago, I have not spent time studying the design changes to the course. I did play he course after the work was completed and had mixed emotions on several changes. I feel it deserves much more study before making too many statements. One change I detest — which I have heard from others, too — is the now fully blind water hazard running all the way along the right side of No. 9. which is perplexing, unnecessary and was obviously costly.

Jack Snyder (who served as Billy Bell's on-site eyes and ears during construction) always commented how the main lake at No. 9 was perched because they hit hard digging and had to settle on a levee around a portion of the water. Jack was fully on board with our recommendation to lower the hidden portion of this lake and create two levels instead of one. But, for the life of me, I cannot understand why you would take a bad lake (as it existed) and continue the blind water all the way along the golf hole to the green.

[Bill_McBride]

Did the taxpayers get their money's worth?  I don't know how much was spent or how much was taxpayer funded.  I do know that the original press releases announced a $9.75M figure that was to be funded by "Industrial Development Authority Bonds."  Not sure how that works, but my understanding is that would be a loan to be paid back.

Here is what was done (based on my observation):
- Turf renovation - tees, fairways and greens
- New irrigation system
- Bunker renovation + new bunkers
- Lagoon renovation
- Lots of tree and brush removal
- New trees
- Practice area renovation
- Some new cart paths
- A new halfway house/restroom
- New maintenance building
- New cart fleet
- Demolition of the old clubhouse.

How much that cost, I have no idea.  It is plainly apparent that they ran out of money.  The tees, fairways, greens and bunkers are in wonderful shape.  Greens of course will need a few years of topdressing to smooth out I think.  Tree removal has opened up the views on many holes.  The periphery remains "scruffy" however, and much further tree work is needed and the roughs and native areas need attention.   

I don't know if it was in the plans to complete the cart paths and some may think it better without cart paths, but I think on a muni that gets lots of rounds, they risk compaction of that turf that all that money was spent to renovate.  Many of the beat down dirt paths remain adjacent to the tees that didn't get new cart paths, and these bare spots will expand as time goes on.

The clubhouse remains a double-wide trailer.  Not a big deal to me, but I do think, along with the still scruffy periphery, it impedes the plans to charge $125 to the out-of-town visitors.  I was disappointed that they couldn't save the old building, a funky, "mid-century modern" design. 

I still think it is a wonderful course in much better shape than before and a delight to play.  I hope they get things squared away.

Thanks, Tom.  Your last line is good news and encouraging.

[Tom Yost]

Tim:   To be fair, I noted new carts, but don't know if they were purchased or leased.

Forrest:  You are right, the new building (a very sparton pre-fab steel affair) is for cart storage.  The maint yard remains unchanged.  I should know it well as it seems I visit it every time I play the 12th hole!   

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I was wondering what you've heard concerning private courses in Scottsdale having to deal with the tough economic times.  Are they cutting back initiation fees, are they allowing public access?  How about the "upscale" public venues, have they reduced their fees?

[Forrest Richardson]

Jerry — Yes, yes and yes. Want to buy a course? Now is a good time if you are willing to wait out the economy. How about Seven Canyons in Sedona? My guess is that it will sell for less than $5,000,000 (course only)

[Tom Yost]

Tom: I was wondering what you've heard concerning private courses in Scottsdale having to deal with the tough economic times.  Are they cutting back initiation fees, are they allowing public access?  How about the "upscale" public venues, have they reduced their fees?

I know that quite a few privates are offering public play including Superstition Mountain, Quintero, The Rim (Payson), Seven Canyons (Sedona), Hassayampa and Talking Rock (Prescott) and that number seems to be growing.   I assume that membership buy-in discounts  abound, but I don't keep up with that.   

For sure,  most every daily fee offers some sort of special or golfnow discount.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Billy Fuller did the work. Click on the video link for a look at the course and an interview with Fuller:


http://www.billyfuller.com/page15.html


As far as privates are concerned, membership deals abound. There will be an announcement soon about one that Tom did not mention.

[Jason Topp]

In college I played that course for $3.  I thought it was fantastic at that price but it did take 3 hours to play nine holes.

[Tom Yost]

The Fuller web page says $5.8M

[Ryan Farrow]

If they were interested in making money, they would have only done the bunker renovation, irrigation, re-grassing, and tree removal. And most importantly, restoring the out of play areas to native desert with some good DG, and good vegetation, not dirt and rocks.

I never had a problem with the greens, even if they lost some size over the years, the contouring was great, they were firm, rolled well most of the time, and they were still BIG!

Like Forest said, the lagoon renovation just doesn't make any sense. I think 17 was an improvement though... I think, its been a while.


I'm glad to see the Clubhouse go down, just should have had the money in place to build the new one before they....... before they tore it down.

[Mike Cirba]

Papago in its present state is an excellent public course...never had the priviliege of playing it before the restovation, but am glad I got out there since...very firm and fast conditions, lot of room to play...one of the most enjoyable courses in the valley.

My understanding is that it would have taken more money to deal with infrastructure issues in the old clubhouse than it would be build a new one.   In either case, I think they ran into some very bad timing on the economy and unexpected competition from a private market that's overbuilt.

[Forrest Richardson]

I was just informed that rounds played from July 2010 through February 2011 were just over 19,000 ... During the same period a year ago there were 27,600 rounds played.

It is almost unbelievable to see a 30% decline in this period, especially when one considers that following the renovation play was about half of what it had been. The Papago of 80,000 rounds is at an all-time low.

While this is not a scientific assessment, my take is that the course has been distanced from its customers ... Now without a clubhouse, still trying to recover from various managers (and no managers), and lacking details that were left out of the work, I think a lot of core golfers have simple moved on to other municipal courses. This has left Papago in the dust.

I hope the judge presiding over the complicated bankruptcy considers the old course herself, and not just the entities and bank who are 'official' parties to the issue. What Papago needs is an advocate, and I am not sure there is a good one at the table.

[Jim Briggs]

Forrest,

I was just out in Scottsdale the week before last and was speaking with another visiting golfer who had just played Papago on the recommendation of a friend.  The feedback I received was that while you could see some of the bones of a good golf course there, the condition the course was maintained was apparently extremely poor.

Disappointing as I had played it a couple of years ago after the renovation and conditions were good.

If the word of mouth is anything resembling what I heard from someone how had just played it, I'm really not surprised that the rounds are down as much as they are.

[Forrest Richardson]

I have played three times since the renovation (once at $60!) and, agreed, conditions became worse on each of my experiences. As said, I feel the old girl needs an advocate...much like we provide for a child who has been abused when the family winds up in court. Unfortunately it appears all involved are jockeying for position and individual outcomes. At least that is the appearance.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I did not play Papago this year during my winter hiatus in PHX. I did play the recently renovated muni- Aguila with some locals. They told me they prefer Aguila over Papago for the better conditions there. I also played some fun lower priced courses- Coldwater and Arizona Grande fka Phantom Horse. 

Also, the newly renamed Tres Rios GC, fka Estrella Mountain GC, is under new management with much improved conditions and is very resonably priced in season. It's a very good study of a Red Lawrence design. I would call it  a "Flynn Light."

www.tresriosgolf.com

[Don_Mahaffey]

I hate to say I told you so, but I called the ending way back when the AGA involvement was first announced. What saddens me most, Is I think they'll fool someone else somewhere down the line. They'll find someone desperate enough to listen to their hogwash and do it all over again I'm afraid.

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