Why haven't more holes

[Patrick_Mucci]

from Augusta been duplicated over the last 87 years ?

The individual hole designs have often been called brilliant.

While the back nine is more familiar to most, the front nine has received ample exposure in recent years.

Holes like # 3, # 11, # 12, # 13, # 15, # 16 and # 18 have all received substantive accolades over the years.

The only hole that comes to mind, that seems to be a copy of a hole at ANGC is # 13 at Pine Tree.

Are there any other holes that seem to be replicas of holes at ANGC ?

Why haven't we seen more copies where the land would lend itself to a replica ?

[Will MacEwen]

Isn't #12 at Muirfield Village an homage to #12 at ANGC?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Some of the holes are a matter of style, or topography.  I don't think #3 would fit well on many of my own courses ... truthfully, it looks a bit out of place at Augusta.  You can't really do #13 without a stream, which you can't build a green next to in most places today.  And #15 isn't going to work unless you've got a 30-foot hill to play down from ... maybe a bit true for #11 as well.

There have been several homages to #12.  My Common Ground course in Denver has a tribute of sorts to #16 at Augusta, the par-3 sixth hole there.

As for #18, why the heck would anybody want to copy that hole?

[Garland Bayley]

We've got a reverse #13 at my home course, except the architect didn't see it and build it.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat,

  You may have played this one--the 14th at Hominy Hill in Colts Neck is a downhill par five, lake fronting the green.  Scorecard yardage is 535/Blue Tees (rear) and 504/White Tees (middle).  Slight cut tee shot, and then relatively straight fairway down to the water, and the green beyond.  

Very similar in terms of strategy and appearance, I am not certain about the slope of the fairway at HH vs. ANGC.  The slope from the green down to the lake is obviously not cut as close as at ANGC. 

I am not sure if there is any intentional coincidence--although RTJ was the architect of HH in the late 50s or early 60s (I may be mistaken as to the date), but there are some parallels.   It was a private club at one time, I understand. 

I've played there several times and for whatever reason, I always think of the 15th at Augusta.  

The 13th at Architects I shouldn't even mention...(the Mackenzie hole)

Also, Pat, when you say duplicate holes, I think you have said before, Augusta National  for membership play plays a lot different than it does for the Masters field.  Are you making allowances for this in your question?  

Pat, these two are a reverse of your question, but:

There is a relatively well known statement floating around that #16 at Columbia was/is the inspiration for the 12th at Augusta, but, on the Columbia course, it is very much out of place with the appearance of the rest of the course.  I am not going to divert this thread with a discussion on what came first, but it would be interesting to find out.  Maybe if Craig Disher is reading this, he can weigh in, he lives close by.  

I believe the same is said about one of the holes on the inward nine at Baltusrol Lower-(maybe the 13th--I haven't played the Lower course)-it was the inspiration for the 13th at Augusta.  I don't recall where I read this. 


Tom Doak,

  I believe about a week ago, you had brought up the statement concerning the sequencing of holes at Augusta, groups of "hard" holes and "birdie" holes and your thoughts as to why they work so well for the tournament, such as proximity of players in contention.  

  As an architect, assuming it fit on the land, would you want to lift the hole verbatim, or more imply the strategy of playing the hole, maybe simulate the design of the green, or design with similar shot requirements in mind?  

  Or, would you be interested in, depending on your client's requirements, the grouping of holes, routing the course, into stretches similar to Augusta National-the "difficult" stretches and "birdie" stretches.  

[V. Kmetz]

Patrick,

It might be an anti-climatic answer on my part, but I've got to think that what we take as Augusta National now, is shaped by something that is artificial...the club.

they have shaped land forms to such an extent that they don't have what Mackenzie and Jones had upon looking at the property almost 80 years ago.

Take 15 for instance, the feel of that shot from the hill was probably so much different... a small stream in front, not a pond, no water behind, no razor slopes or right hand bunker.  Wide open, 60 yard wide fairway.

Still, your point is well-taken as there aren't many "replicas" or "models."

for the moment, all I can think of is that land forms that would be part of any such replica don't exist regularly and/or don't have the good fortune of having them selected for golf courses to be built upon.  Earthmoving is somewhat out of vogue and that removes another possible impetus to have something close.

cheers

vk

[Garland Bayley]

Wasn't there a thread recently showing a course in Thailand I believe that replicated the whole back nine at ANGC?

[Steve Lang]

  last time I was at Tour 18 I went one under through #11, 12, & 13.. those are always quite a treat...

[Ronald Montesano]

10 at cooks creek in ohio reminds me yet again of lucky #13

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

I hear what you're saying, but, with all the earthmoving that's done in modern times and with remediation, one would think that # 13 at ANGC would be a widely replicated hole.

On # 18, I tend to agree, that's a pretty difficult hole, not one prone to replication, but, when tbe topography presents itself, I can see and architect crafting that hole and citing # 18 at ANGC to support his creation.

Same on # 11, the topo would have to be unique.

# 7's approach shot/green&surrounds seems to beg for replication.

# 15 too.

I would think that the introduction of water would better lend itself to a private club rather than a public access course.

[Chris Buie]

They have attempted a replication of Amen Corner at GCA's favorite place - Myrtle Beach, S.C.
http://www.theworldtourgolf.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=14&Itemid=23
Holes 4-6

[Mark McKeever]

Pat,

Next time youre in Houston, play Tour 18.   

Mark

[Brad Isaacs]

I think there are a lot of courses with  angled hazards with an angled green. This is a very simple description of the 12th. The 12th is very beautiful, but the concept really is not unusual. The 12th at my home course of Southern Highlands in Las Vegas is like this. The 8th is not unlike the 16th.   I really don't recall anything like the 4th from 238 yds. though.

[David Kelly]

I know you probably aren't talking about replicas but of the many Amen Corner knockoffs I have played I thought Golden Ocala's was the best.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=golden&aq=&sll=29.222448,-82.260014&sspn=0.003633,0.004823&ie=UTF8&t=h&rq=1&ev=zi&split=1&radius=0.17&hq=golden&hnear=&ll=29.222238,-82.260872&spn=0.003633,0.004823&z=18

[Jeff_Brauer]

So far, I haven't done an homage to the 12th, although its a great hole.  13 is almost too specific, but holes based on the general principle of 15 abound around the country.  You could make a case that 16 has been closely replicated since there are many pond par 3's.  RTJ was probably the first one to use them widely, but I don't know if ANGC was one of his early ones.  16 or others have been copied though.

I also like the general idea of the 3rd green and have used the concept. I don't like where they placed the bunker, though.  I always kind of thought the 18th at Shoal Creek was a loose interpretation of 3.

I have kind of done a hole based on the 7th green (but much shorter than the current 450 yards!) 

And, Firekeeper has a green loosely modeled after the 18h at ANGC.  Even the tee shot is close.
 
I have done greens close to the 2nd green, but never really thought it was the model for my gull wing greens.  More like Riv 14, which came earlier.

And, in a general way, the idea of wider play corridors, minimal height rough and less than 50 bunkers has sort of been the prototype for design since ANGC opened, no?

[Mark Pearce]

Doug,

The two holes I have heard proposed as the template for number 12 are the 7th (I think) at Stoke Park and one of the par 3s (I forget which number) at Pitreavie, both of which are MacKenzie designs.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Aside from it being on the card as a long par-4, there's an almost identical homage to 13 at the Jeff Howes designed Gowran Park in Ireland...

The land forms suited almost perfectly...

[Phil Benedict]

Patrick:

As for #18, why the heck would anybody want to copy that hole?

Tom,

What is it about the 18th that you don't like? 

[Shane Wright]

Pat,

I also like 6 as a potential hole to "tribute" at other golf courses.

Could it be that Augusta is a tough one to get to study, therefore, limiting how many have had the ability to truly study the original at Augusta and then influence their future designs.  Maybe industry folks can weigh in a little more on this.

Would you like to study Augusta up close and personal for several days as a way to get ideas and influence future design decisions?

 

 

[Ally Mcintosh]

Was there not a thread here recently suggesting that 4 & 6 were themselves modelled on Redan and Eden?

18 never strikes me as a good hole from the telly.... Narrow drive through a chute of trees to a very specific landing area flanked by trees and bunkers (on the outside of a dogleg)... followed by a severly uphill shot to a green that would (is?) be blind if the green hadn't been built with such a big back to front slope...

Maybe I shouldn't say that it doesn't strike me as a good hole... Perhaps a hole with no outstanding features might be more appropriate...

But of course - I haven't seen the hole. I am talking with only TV experience.

[Matthew Rose]

I've read somewhere that Pete Dye wanted #14 at Crooked Stick to be a copy of #13 at Augusta, but in his own words, it was "too short to be a par-five".