Barona Creek: Strengths/Weaknesses

[ed_getka]

I played Barona Creek which was designed by Todd Eckenrode. It is located east of San Diego and is an absolute delight to play. The course plays pretty firm and fast but will accept well-struck shots into the green. The fairways have a fair amount of width which allows you to decide where you want to place tee shots. The bunkering is quite good and not just flanking the fairways, but actually requires you to consider going around or over depending on what you think the optimum line of approach will be. Once in the fairway, even if you haven't placed your ball in the right spot, you still have some options. You can shape a shot into the green or you can use slopes that were built into the greens which will send your ball in the direction of the pin. These slopes are great for sucker pins by giving the golfer a way to get to the hole without risking the hazard. The contour around the greens leads to a great test of ones short game when approachs go awry. I have a decent short game and there are few courses I have played that force you to think and use your imagination as much as Barona Creek does.

The holes are particularly liked were #4 and 14. #4 is a downhill par 4 with a large bunker that forces one to play out to the right and lengthen the hole with a tougher approach angle or try and boom one down the left for a short iron approach if you feel you can pull it off. The contour of the green allows for feeding the ball to various pin positions. #14 is a short uphill par 4 that poses the usual decisions for a short par 4. The thing I really like about the hole is the green which has a shelf in the middle of the green from near the front curling gently around to the left as it heads to the back of the green. I thought about driver off the tee, but figured a half-wedge over bunkers to a shallow green would be tough so I took the long iron tee shot/short iron approach. When I got up to the green and saw the contour I realized that driver would have been a better play because the half-wedge doesn't have to be eased in over the bunkering. The shot can be brought in low and running and then use the contour to feed the ball back to the hole without having to negotiate the bunkers at all. Since I tend to be a spaz with finesse wedge pitches I really thought this approach possibility was cool.

#18 is a weird finishing hole. It played for us about 460 yds into the wind and was a bit of strange hole that I can't figure out how to explain (not that I did a very good job above either).

Overall I enjoyed Barona Creek right up there with Bandon Dunes, Pac Dunes, Stevinson Ranch, of new courses I have played in the past few years.

[Matt_Ward]

Ed:

With all due respect -- right up there with Bandon and PD?

I would not go that far, although I too like Barona Creek very much. The layout is well done and the holes move in an assortment of directions.

I really liked the par-3 16th (174 yards) because keeping a ball on the putting surface when the hole is usually played downwind requires the softest balata covered ball imagineable. When the pin is cut dead right you better have a ball that can land like a butterfly to stay on the firm surface. Great short hole that ooozes character.

I also believe the 18th plays from the tips about 472 yards and it's best to keep the tee shot down the right hand side but a neatly placed bunker is located to protect that location.

The 13th is also a hole of note as a par-5 of 534 yards. The preferred angle is from the right, but a creek protects that side and since the hole slides uphill you must crank two solid shots if you think you can get home. The obstacle? Beautifully situated green with the same creek cutting in front of the hole. Well done.

Anyone visiting the San Diego area and not playing Barona Creek has missed something of quality. Barona has the kind of firm and fast turf that really means extra duty thinking on the shots -- you've got room off the tee to miss a bit, but there are clear angles that are best to hit your approaches from.

The only weakness? Tough to say but I do think some of the middle holes are just OK -- say from holes #8 through #12. Before anyone starts to go ballistic I'm talking about a small issue to a course that is definitely a must play when in the area in my humble opinion.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Does anyone know if Todd was also the lead designer on the Eagles Glen project in Corona, CA?  It was the first and only Gary Roger Baird course I have played, had some really cool holes and some nice bunker work on a piece of property that about half of it didn't seem very well suited for golf. No walking on that course.

[ed_getka]

Matt,
When I said Barona was right up there with the others I mentioned that doesn't mean the course or routing is as well done, just that I enjoyed it to the same degree. All of the courses I mentioned fit my golf game. I am weakest at driving (Tom H, Rich, and Bob H can attest), thus I don't hit a lot of greens in regulation (avg. 6/round). I rely on my short game to keep my rounds together. Most of the courses I really enjoy don't put a premium on driving the ball.

I felt the set of par 3's was quite good and each required a different club. #16 has that backboard which is the only way my low spin shots have a prayer downwind, but I missed and had a bunker shot down to the right side pin you mentioned.

What did you think of the green on #14 that I mentioned?

Do you know what the story is on the liners inside a lot of the bunkers? Were they meant to be there until the bunkers matured or are they having a maintenance issue?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Craig,
Eagle Glen is Todd's design all the way, but he was doing both Eagle Glen and Barona ounder the GRB banner as Associate or Project Architect.

[THuckaby2]

Do you know what the story is on the liners inside a lot of the bunkers? Were they meant to be there until the bunkers matured or are they having a maintenance issue?

I just played there two weekends ago, and I have nothing of substance to add to this.  I do have this same question though... maybe Todd will show up and clarify.

I truly did enjoy the course and my main impression is that there was a LOT of strategy called for off the tee, and the course played firm and fast as well as any course I've played in the US (yes, Bandon/Pacific/Shinnecock included).  Very fun ground game called for...

I also really like the par3's, all of them.

I didn't play the Mat Ward tips - one set up was fine for me!  So #16 at 150 was very doable - Matt's right, at 174 it would be darn tough for me to keep the middle iron required on the green.  

#18 was a fine hole, I thought, from my tees... 440 or so, water on left, great bunker on right... I putted from 30 yards short and got up and down... very fun.

TH

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Thank you all for the comments.  I agree with Ed's affinity for #4 and #14.  #14 was a no-brainer, as the short (305 tips) par 4 fit up that valley perfectly.  #4 I am really proud of, as I had absolutely nothing to work with here as far as natural features go.  It goes to show what width, options, and engaging the player's mind can do to make a hole interesting.

Ed-you really "got" the essence of the course-nice observations.

I did do both courses as Project Architect for Gary Roger Baird Design Int'l.  and have started own firm now, Origins Golf Design.  Obviously Barona is my favorite of the two, but I'm very proud of Eagle Glen as well.  I had people in the industry tell my I'll never see a tougher project again as long as I practice.  About 2/3 of the site was in a mountain, with some pretty heavy environmental mitigation as well, but I managed to make some very fun and interesting holes out of it, with some great variety, and it's very popular.  Cart ball, though, I'm afraid.  No choice.

Thanks again for the comments.  Would love for everyone to get down to Barona, and keep 'em coming.

[Neal_Meagher]

Ed,

You asked about the liners showing up at the margins of some of the bunkers.  Now, I haven't yet had the pleasure of playing at Barona (though that will be rectified  in a few weeks), what I can guess is that 20 or 30 mil liners were placed below the sand layer to prevent rocks, pebbles, other contaminants, etc. from percolating upward through the sand towards the surface.  I'm sure that Todd can verify whether this was the case or not.

This is a common problem and the use of synthetic liners is usually employed to help solve it.  However, they are not supposed to be visible.  You can often see the same thing on newer courses that used liners around the green cavities to separate the sand mix from surrounding (different) soil types.  Often about an 1/8" to 1/4" of the very top of the liner shows through, though it shouldn't.

One interesting way of solving the same problem is to do what I did on a project in the Seattle area last winter where we rebuilt all of the bunkers on the golf course.  The superintendent there had had problems with the liners breaking through and making a general mess of things.  So, what we did instead was to build the bunker as usual, but prior to placing the sand, we laid down a low grade sod in the basin of the bunker.  Then, the sod was killed off with roundup and the sand spread over this "natural" liner.  So far, so good.  If Tommy would like to help me post them, I have some far-out looking pictures of the all sod "sand" bunkers during construction.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Todd,

   After seeing what you did with Eagle Glen, I can't wait to get down to Barona and play.

I really think you had a great mix of holes at Eagle Glen, with long and short par 3/4/5.  I think #4 was my favorite par 3.

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Sorry, forgot about the liner thing.  Actually, we didn't line the bottoms of the bunkers as you guessed, Neal.  Though it was a good guess, as what we did was a little unusual.

About 3/4 of the bunkers have a native edge to them as the lip treatment, as opposed to typical sod ring.  Due to superintendent and contractor issues, we placed the sand in bunkers prior to grow in.  The native lips were then seeded with appropriate mix (where disturbed, that is).  As they needed a good bit of water to establish the seed, there would have been a lot of runoff into the bunker sand, contaminating it.   One of the assistant superintendents thought this up, and it's worked great.  Similar liner (20 mil) was cut in strips about 1-2' wide (depending on depth of lip, which varies), and buried into the sand just below the lip.  This essentially traps any nuisance erosion behind the liner and protects the sand.

It was supposed to be taken out after grow in-establishment of these lips, but that's been slow.  They may leave it in through the spring rains just to be safe.

Nice creativity on his part, though, and I'd do it again.

[ed_getka]

Todd,
The liners didn't affect play at all and are working as designed from what I saw. If thats what it takes to get bunkers as good as yours keep doing it.

What options are there on #16 other than using the slope/backboard in the middle of the green when playing downwind from the tips? Did I miss something you incorporated into the surrounds?

What was your intention with #18 from a design standpoint, and why does fairway length grass wrap around the greenside bunker to the right? Is it just for chipping or did you intend for a draw to be played around the bunker for those afraid of the water?

[cardyin]

I take written notes when I play a course for the first time--identifying those elements of a course that I consider to be "upside," (excellent to much above average), and those elements which I consider to be "downside" (fair to miserable).  Barona Creek was the only course I played for the first time last year (about 90 of them) in which my notes did not reflect a single criticism.  And I played Barona Creek the day after playing Porcupine Creek in Rancho Mirage--Tim Blixseth's marvelous and ultra-private enclave--and, frankly, wondered as I wound back through the rocky hills east of San Diego to an Indian reservation if it was going to be worth the effort. It definitely was, and now I find myself recommending the course to anyone who plans to visit the area.      

[Yancey_Beamer]

Moorlands Design.Fast running,strategically brilliant,and definitely a thinking man's course. The best new course in this area. :)The inland answer to links like golf.

Well Done!

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Dammit Ed.  You "get it" too much.  #16 is a bit controversial, and in a big wind, with certain pins, you just might not be able to fire at the pin.  I personally have never not been able to stop it with a clean shot, but anyone who doesn't generate a lot of clubhead speed, and doesn't play a balata type ball probably couldn't.  Is this a bad thing?  I haven't decided yet.  It's a bit interesting to make someone play away from a pin when the shot only "plays" 150 yds or so.  The only "tweak" we are considering to the whole course is here, though, possibly pulling the front right bunkering back away from the green so that a shot could bounce in to the right pins.  That depends a bit on how the greens mature, though, and how firm they stay.  We'll see.  

Some of the intention of the right chipping area on #18 is a bail out zone presenting a myriad of chipping options, depending on the pin.  I've putted, hit flop wedge, and 8-irons...whatever the shot requires.  And I've been over there a lot, as this hole can play real long into the predominate wind, and I don't quite have the nerve to rip a 2-iron at the pin too often.  For first-timers, the shot is very intimidating, as the bunker 30 yards short and right of the green looks like it's up against the green, and that there isn't a real bail-out area.  In reality, it's huge.  

After the birdie-able par 5 #17, some of the intent was to finish with a really hard par hole, and get you from thinking agressively to thinking defensively.  Yet, with the very wide driving area, and big bail out area right of the green, it's quite an easy bogey hole if played smart and not intimidated, and you probably won't lose the hole in a match with that here.

[THuckaby2]

Todd:  here's a vote to leave 16 as it is.  It's unique and a damn fun hole.  If one is forced to play away from the pin, I saw more power to the player who is able to figure that out - he should be rewarded!

Re 18, you are damn right you don't see the right side bailout the first time... I was absolutely completely fooled by the visual my one time there.  I won't be next time!  But very nice MacKenzian trick.

I posted thoughts about your course on several different threads, it just is the example we're using these days in many different conversations!  But in case you missed it, I REALLY liked 14 and the way the right fairway bunker is... the little finger jutting out at the top was beyond cool.  And damn is that one great green....  And Ed is indeed right on also re 4... another hole in that vein is 6 - funny to think how many ways that one fairway bunker comes into play, depending on the wind...

My quibble re #3 remains the card distance of 260 (over the normal USGA limit for par3's).  I understand it plays much shorter, no hassles, I just wish it were 249....

That's a very small quibble, and it's just me.  It's a golf hole, correct, and par SHOULDN'T matter.

TH

[ed_getka]

Todd,
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Maybe some day we could get together with some other GCA guys and play a round there. What current projects are you working on?

[JohnV]

Todd, as I recall, 16 was the one hole the players on the Futures Tour complained about during our event there last year.  It did play as one of the hardest holes during the tournament.  It was downwind most days and when the hole was in middle, they couldn't get very near it.  But, as I asked some who complained, why is a 15 footer from the left of the hole any different than one short or long?  Some got it and others didn't.

In general they loved the course.  I don't know if you ever got the statistics from the tournament, but the club should have them so you can see how each hole played.

One of my favorite holes was the 5th, which is an uphill par 4 that challanges the longer hitter to carry a bunker on the right to open up the green.

One change I could possibly see would be to increase the size of the fairway on the right side of the creek on 13 to encourage more people to go there.  It really seemed too narrow for many players to give it a try and get the better angle.

[Todd_Eckenrode]

Ed.  We have a few projects going in design phase right now, one in SoCal (very close to another), and 3 in Norcal, and consulting on a couple others also.  I'd like to diversify out of California, if anybody knows of anything (shameless, I know).

Re. a gathering for GCA, that would be wonderful, and I'd love to participate.  I do recall a North-South match being kicked around, but I think it fizzled.  Maybe it needs to be resurrected.  

John.  Thanks for your thoughts.  You did copy me on the stats after the tournament, so I know of what you speak.  Are you going back there this year?  It would be interesting to see another years' stats, as the greens hold a little better now with a cleanly hit shot than when you were there.
 

[ed_getka]

Todd,
 There is interest in getting together at Barona so if you can contact me at egetka@earthlink.net to try and coordinate a time that will work for you. Thanks.

[JohnV]

Todd, I thought I had sent you the stats, but I couldn't remember.  The Futures Tour has no events scheduled in California this year for some reason.  They say they'll be back on the West Coast next year.