Moonah Links - Australian Open 2003

[Chris Kane]

If you haven't played this course yet, what are you waiting for?

Yes the price is more than the average player normally pays. However, by the time you have finished playing this ultimate course, you will want to come back again.

The rough is a point of no return, a foot in and the balls gone. You must hit the fairway or reach for the next ball from your bag. The bunkers are deep, very deep, if you get in don't try to be a hero, just get back onto the fairway.

The fairways are the best I have ever played, the greens better than Royal Melbourne. Smoother than by 20 month old sons bottom, and just as tricker to master as getting a baby to sleep.

The course is long (it takes a good 4.5 to 5.5 hours) to play a round but it seems much less. The holes difficult, but with some thought and by leaving your driver in the bag a little more often the rewards are there to be taken. Strategy on each hole is must.

The course will play very differently in varying weather experienced the peninsula gets day by day, as those of you who have played the Dune, Shank or Flinders will have experienced.

From the time you enter the complex the great staff are at your service. Unloading your bag to assisting with your game plan, they are at your service until you drive out the gate to return home to start bragging to your mates about this course.

This is a course for players of all levels.

So don't be scared or 'cheap' play it and experience why it will become one of the best courses in the world.

This is the description I read at another forum.  

The reaction from the golfing public seems to be positive to the Open Course designed by TWP, but everyone I've spoken to who I'd consider to have a 'trained eye' thinks otherwise.  What is the verdict is GCA land?

I don't want this to turn into another forum for TWP bashing: if you wish to say your bit on TWP go to the Victoria GC thread!  Lets keep all the TWP criticism in one place.

[Barney Grum]

Chris,

You seem closer to the place than us Americans. What do you think of it?  

Barney

[Ran Morrissett]

Chris,

I'm confused as I think this may be another TWP course that was built since I was there 2 years ago - is this one down the road from their course at The National GC?

Isn't the Norman course at The National called Moonah Links as well  

FYI Several Melbournites have told me that the play over the three courses at The National is shaking out to be a shade over half the members flock to the Norman course, a third to the original RTJ Jr one, and the balance to the TWP course. Chris, is that how you would divide your rounds there as well?

[corey miller]

Ran
This was the last course I played on my recent trip.  If you are asking if there was some confusion YES.  I thought I had a tee time at the Norman course, did not know there were two courses until I was ten minutes from the course with my map out.  I do have a few shots of the Open course.  Was not to distraught as it cost $75 and was told the Norman course was $275 for a visitor.  TWP built I am sure what was asked of them and if it keeps them from messing around with the sandbelt courses for one tournament then I will say this "it was the best course I have ever played".  6800 metres from the back tees will be perfect for this tournament.  I did think it was a fun course with some interesting shots.

[Chris Kane]

Ran,

I've yet to make it to The National for a variety of reasons.  Sadly I've had to knock back a couple of invitations recently.  I'm still waiting for a kind invite at the right time.

Moonah Links is the AGU development down the road from the Dunes, and has the new TWP Open course, and another course under construction.  It is a CCFAD-style facility.  

Don't confuse it with the Moonah course at The National which is entirely separate.

It is very confusing, and some Melburnians still can't wrap their mind around it either.  During construction they hinted that there would be a name change, but it never happened.  To have people confused about where their booking is held is absurd.

For the folks at Moonah Links (the AGU facility), I'm sure they're quite happy riding the aclaim that The National course has recieved.  

My impressions: having only walked half the course four months before it opened, I'd say not good.  Cookie-cutter style, with those awful TWP pots.  Maybe its ok off the Tiger Tees (7500yd), but from the forward tees (7000yd) it doesn't appear to work.  

[Mike Duffy]

Ran,

Yes, you are entitled to be confused, as indeed many are here in Melbourne.

The Norman course is called the Moonah, and the new AGU course at Rye is also called the Moonah. Apparently, neither will change the name, so we will have to learn to differentiate when we talk about "The Moonah Course", for it could mean either one.

I have been somewhat put off by the descriptions of the new Moonah (the TWP at Rye).

Two of our best young players at my home club (handicaps 1 and three respectively) played from the back tees and had 88 and 89 on a day of moderate wind.

One player lost four balls and the other five. They told me "if you hit it in the British Open rough, don't bother looking for it".

Apparently the rough is bwtween knee and thigh-high in most places, and the course in its present incarnation is far too penal for handicap players, even good ones.

The rough at that height might be just right for an Oz Open, but not when the new complex is trying to encourage daily-fee players to venture to the southern points of the Mornington Peninsula.

They also told me it took them five horus 40 minutes to get around, as most of the participants in front of them spent considerable time in the rough trying to locate numerous inaccurate shots.

Five hours 40 minutes is not my ideal for a round of golf anywhere at anytime

[Peter Goss]

I agree that 5 hrs 40 mins is way too long for a round of golf and from Mike's post, the long rough seems to be the culprit. Is this not the fault of the course superintendent or their superiors rather than TWP (the architects and builders)? And Chris' original post quoted a blurb commenting on the rough - do the management see this as a selling point??

Despite the two golfers being excellent club golfers (not professionals), should they have played from the back (championship) tees?

We hear little about the strategic element to this course designed primarily for the Australian Open though I would like to hear more from Corey and his "interesting" shots. I recall Mike Clayton wasn't a fan though I can't recall why.

I don't think pot bunkers are awful. Mackenzie bunkers are awesome but life would be boring if we didn't have variety. I understand the new Moonah Links course (yes another Ran) the Legends by TWP will have more classical sandbelt bunkering.

And I'll form my own my opinion on the course after I've played it (from the appropriate tees).

[Mike Clayton]

I just dont think you need 7500 yds to make it difficult and at that length it makes it difficult to build great little holes.

[DrKildare]

And another thing...why in blazes did TWP get the shot at the second Moonah course ...or is it the third...shit i'm confused.

I understand its to be done with the TWP-IMG JV...ASAP..GEE.
Surely variety is the best shot.

[Justin_Ryan]

At $75 per round, I suspect that Moonah Links will struggle to generate any repeat business, particularly when you can play at Portsea and The Dunes for roughly half that price and probably double the enjoyment.

Ran
That is probably a fair assessment of the play at the National, although I whenever I take guests who have never played there, I always try and take them around the RTJ course first.  The Ocean course seems to be dividing opinion, I am one of many who think it has proven to be a wasted opportunity, but to be fair, there are a lot of members who seem to like it.

Peter
I agree with you, there is nothing wrong with pot bunkers, it is just that TWP seem to put them in some strange places.

Chris
Back to school tomorrow, hope the GCA withdrawal symptoms aren't too bad.

[Justin_Ryan]

Dr Kildare
You have just hit on a pet peeve of mine, why are TWP getting all the work on the Mornington Peninsula?  In an article on the Ausgolf website, Paul Daley wrote that the Mornington Peninsula was rising up to challenge the Monterey Peninsula as a golfing destination.  I think this rise has been stopped dead by the fact that every new course seems to be a TWP one.  The last two courses to open have been TWP (National Ocean, Moonah Links), with the next two planned also TWP (Moonah Links MkII and reportedly St Andrews Beach). They are also doing a 36 hole complex on the fringe of the peninsula at Carrum.  Even if TWP built the world's greatest golf courses, this would still be overkill, but the fact is the first two have barely made a blip on the ratings screen, being relatively poorly received.  If the Mornington Peninsula is going to rise up and challenge the Monterey Peninsula, it needs the world's best designers producing an array of different and exciting courses, not the same stuff over and over.  I remain hopeful that the proposed new courses at the National get the go ahead, and C&C or Tom Doak get one of them as mooted, just so we get something different and better.  Or perhaps TWP could hand over a couple of their projects for the good of the Peninsula.

[Richard Chamberlain]

OK, so let me see if I've got this right.

The National have 3 layouts by:
1. RTJ jr
2. Sharkie
3. TWP

Cape Schanck have no link to The National, even though it is next door.

The AGU have one new course, Moonah by TWP, and another planned next door being designed by TWP and IMG. Or is it designed by TWP and IMG to manage the joint ?

Where is St Andrews beach ? Last I heard about that project it had Doak/IBF to design but now Finchy is in bed with the Bear (this is sounding like a nursery rhyme).
And now Doakey is in bed with Clayto in Tassie (Mike what is your nickname ?...I hope its The Rhino or something flash to entertain the kids)  

And lastly, does the National have more dirt available for more courses ? If so, how many ?

Geez, I hope the Walrus dosn't get involved down there.

[Justin_Ryan]

Dr K

Your understanding is pretty good.  The Moonah Legends course is being developed by Australasian Golf Design, a joint venture between IMG and TWP.  I'm not sure what IMG bring to a golf course design jv though.

I believe that Doak & Co had the St Andrews Beach project, then it went to someone else who I had never heard of whose name I forget, before apparently ending up with TWP.  Maybe a TWP lurker could confirm this.

About the middle of last year the National received a proposal from Medallist (GND/Macquarie Bank jv) for the construction of two new courses, a par three course and a driving range setup on the property adjacent to the Moonah course.  This would be funded by the sale of 750 new memberships and 40 blocks of land, and the courses would be transferred to the National.  Greg Norman/Bob Harrison would do one of the courses and the par three course, with Doaky (and presumably Clayts) said to be looking good for the 5th course.  A vote last October was deferred, despite having 81% in favor, although the details (and aerial photo) are still on the website under new course development info.  It is felt by many that if the National choose not to go ahead with it, then Medallist will develop the site themselves.

[corey miller]

I think some of the interest is provided by the green construction.  Most are inverted saucers that effectively play much smaller than their size.  On most of the greens the saucer is trampled down in areas so often the approach does not roll off straight down but rather at a funky angle.  combined with the chipping areas on most of the course you get a bunch of neat little chips where direction and speed must be judged rather than a straight shot into the top of the fringe.  This also makes it important that the shot to the green be played to the proper side(no idea what this was on most holes until after having played).  Once on the greens they were not extraordinarily interesting nor difficult to put.  The high grass is pretty far removed on most holes but it is an unplayable if it can be found.  I played the course from 6300 metres but it did not seem that long (is my yardage conversion off???)  Par 3's are pretty weak.  12 and 14 seem like the same hole into the same wind with the same club ~165 metres.  18 is 190 metres with where the flag was tucked could not get a ball within 20 ft.  The course was playing firm which I think you all in australia take for granted.

I played one course in New zealand which was noticeably softer than all the others I had played, where a member said they were lucky with the rain because usually the course has brown?

Moonah Open course doak scale 6. which may very well beat some of our pga championship sites, they just need to drop the hype, though I think TWP gave them what they wanted.

[Chris Kane]

Justin,

Back to school Thursday, so I have three more days to get my GCA fix.  

I would have thought that the AGU would be better to have to ssparate designers for the courses at Moonah Links.  A great thing about The National is having three courses built by different groups with different design philosophies.  Despite the things that have been said, I imagine the Legends course at Moonah will not be a huge contrast to the Open course.  Different yes, but not world's apart.

Corey,

Is the Doak Scale 6 a rating from Tom Doak himself, or your own assessment.  I'll defer judgement until I've seen it properly.  To rant and rave in my current position would be sheer stupidity.

When is it time to rename to Mornington Peninsula the TWP Peninsula?  A great golfing region has, IMHO, many different styles by different designers to give some variety.  This area has enormous potential (just driving along Browns Road and peering out the window makes me excited.  The land is that good).  To stuff it up would be a tragedy.

[Will Waugh]

Chris
As a full member of GCA you should be able to gain credits at school for psychology, english, maths (yard to meter conversion), geography, geology, agricultural science and rocket science! Hope TWP doesn't mark your exams! :-/
Dr K
Loved your post! Perhaps with all the Moonahs we could have the Australian Mooning tour!
Justin
I've wondered about TWP lurkers but thought they would have piped up long ago. Perhaps we should send them an email to let them know of this forum  

[Chris Kane]

Never though of it, but I'll speak to my year-level co-ordinator when I get back.

As soon as a TWP lurker identified himself as such he'd be barraged with criticism!  I think they'd better enjoy spending their time with people who bow before them and tell them they're wonderful.  People like the AGU.

Interesting comment from Mike Clayton, which is spot on.  Of the great courses around the world, how many base their difficulty purely on length, like Moonah Links?

Not too sure about how commercially viable it is to charge $75 (for those Americans out there, this is big money for a public course in Victoria).  Many people I know consider it great value, becuase it is an Australian Open course they can access.  Becuase it's hosting the Open, they have already categorised it with other Open courses such as the ones on the sandbelt.  They can't get onto RM or Kingston Heath, but they can get onto Moonah.  They probably think it is a great deal.

People who have the means to play the sandbelt courses regularly, either through their own membership or their friends, probably don't think too much of Moonah and it's exhorbitant pricing.  But for those who havn't played an Open course before, and don't have the opportunity to do so, this is a great product the AGU have released.  They have big market of club golfers to exploit.

[Chris Kane]

Having read through my original post, I've noticed something else.  

The rough is a point of no return, a foot in and the balls gone. You must hit the fairway or reach for the next ball from your bag. The bunkers are deep, very deep, if you get in don't try to be a hero, just get back onto the fairway...This is a course for players of all levels

A course where one foot off the fairway means a lost ball is not a course for all levels of players.  It is a course that will give the pros hell during a US Open.  This guy was more stupid than I gave him credit for.

[Brian Walshe]

It's probably a little early to get too critical of the rough at Moonah Links.  The course has only been opened two months and they'll work out where they need to cut it back to make it more playable over the next 6 to 12 months.  It is certainly no worse than either the Moonah (at the National) or the Ocean when they opened.  Both of those courses have seen a lot of rough cut back in the last year and are far better for it.

I played it off the Blues a couple of weeks ago and there is just no way I'd want to play it off the Blacks.  It's just stupidly long.  TWP use a lot of fairway bunkers in the line of play and it just seemed that you spend a lot of time having to carry tee shots over bunkers from 190m to 240m out.  At least the greens are much bigger and with less extreme slope than the Ocean.

It will be an interesting Open if it is played there in 2003.  If the wind blows like it can down there, and they don't cut the rough back a lot there will be carnage.  

[Justin_Ryan]

Corey
Having spoken to quite a few people who have played Moonah Links recently, most have indicated that a Doak scale 6 is somewhat generous.  Indeed several have suggested that a figure closer to zero is more appropriate.  I suspect some of the divergence in opinions is because although they may have produced a course that is better than some PGA championship sites, given the terrain they had to work with, they should have been able to produce a course that was truly brilliant.  It is often said that it would be impossible to stuff up building a course in that part of the peninsula, but many would argue that they have now done it twice.

I would also imagine that Tom Doak has had a look at the course during one of his more recent visits to Australia, maybe we can get a rating from the horse's mouth.

[George_Williams]

Someone above questioned  "Why does TWP get all the work here?"
Isn't it because the T in TWP is considered the god of Aussie golf, probably even bigger than Jack or Arnie are in the States?

[corey miller]

Wow, a zero for a rating.  I would not be presumptious enough to rate courses for Tom Doak so yes (6) is my rating based on my interpretation of the system as outlined in his book.  It was a fun round of golf.  Would I go back again? depends what the alternatives are.  could it be a 4-6 yes. higher? probably not. lower? probably not also.  I played a lot of fine courses overseas, perhaps the standards are just much higher?  I admit I did not analyze how well I thought Tom Doak or Tom Fazio would have done on the site.
Seems to me that it is better that they built a course that is 7000 mtrs rather than try to extend a 6500 mtr course to 6800 mtrs!! at least RH,KH,NSW are then safe!!

[Chris Kane]

I'm told that Tom Doak has visited Moonah Links, and I know what he said, but I'll leave it up to either Tom himself or someone who was with him to recount exactly what he said!