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Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« on: March 25, 2011, 05:43:08 PM »
After returning from the Boomerang, I received several requests from other GCA Members to share my thoughts on Barnbougle Dunes and to compare it to other Doak's I've played (including High Pointe, Pac Dunes, Ballyneal, Lost Dunes, Old MacDonald, Commonground and St. Andrew's Beach).  So here goes one man's view, although I'm more than interested in hearing everyone else's opinions please keep in mind the lists below are completely subjective and subject to change at any time.

I'd rank them as follows:

1.  Ballyneal - the best walk, the best mix of holes and the most fun.  I have the benefit of repeated plays, so there are shots I've played that someone who has only seen the course once or twice might not even be aware of.  There is no better stretch of Doak holes than from 1 to 8.  Love how BN continues to reveal itself and provide you with wow moments as you play your round (fairway on 2, figuring out 3, walking up to the tee at 4, peak at 7 from 4, 8th tee and green, 11 to 12, 13th tee, 15, corner on 16, tee at 17).  

2.  Barnbougle Dunes - a more intimate version of BN, without the extreme elevation changes.  Some great holes (par 3's and short par 4's especially), but the par 5's suffer in comparison to BN.  I also prefer a meandering routing with constant direction changes to out and back 9's.  The back at BbD does shift direction a little more than the front, but you don't get the same sense of getting lost on the course like you do at BN.  Hole to hole transitions aren't as seamless as BN

3.  Pacific Dunes - lacks one ingredient that the top two courses have, an owner that gave Doak free-reign (see the 7th and 16th at BN and the 7th and 13th at BbD).  This is not necessarily a bad thing, as MK certainly knew what kind of golf course he wanted to build to suit his model.  Some all world holes (2, 3, 6, 7, 11, 13) but a few sleepers as well.

4.  Old MacDonald - the toughest to judge, as the experience of playing the template holes is first rate.  However, I found my favorite holes to be away from the flat parts of the course, where contours allowed you to play away from the hole (3, 16, 18).  A good test of golf, but not without the demanding nature of some of the shots on the three courses above.  

5.  St. Andrew's Beach - Wonderful green sites, but the repetitive nature of the downhill drives and uphill approaches gets old.  There are a few holes that are extremely challenging (long Par 3 4th, 10th, long Par 4 13th or 14th?).  Stretches of the back nine tend to blend together, but this could be due to only having played the course once two days after a transcontinental flight.

6.  High Pointe - the starting point for everything else on this list.  Very cool to see how Tom's work has evolved from HP, and how a few of the themes have remained (skyline par 3's, green contouring, drives rewarded by finding the speed slots.)  A great mix of holes on open and wooded terrain, some flatter and some on more undulating ground.

7.  Lost Dunes - feels like it was built for a membership that wouldn't appreciate too much quirk, although a good bit snuck in.  Still has all-world moments (4th green, 11th green).  The same thing Doak is praised for on this site (fitting a good course onto a tough site) is probably what holds it back, as the bisecting highway disrupts the round and the holes working around the wetlands seem to be the weakest on the course.

8.  Commonground - probably the least interesting piece of property they had to work with.  Still, a good variety of holes that uses the one high point near the clubhouse to provide some elevation change at the start and finish of each nine.

My list of best holes from the 8 courses noted:
   
Hole      Winner      Runner-Up

1.      Ballyneal      Old Mac
2.      Pac Dunes      Ballyneal
3.      Old Mac      Pac Dunes
4.      Barnbougle      Lost Dunes
5.      St. Andrew's   Old Mac (amazing how many of these are par 3's)
6.      Pac Dunes      Barnbougle
7.      Ballyneal      Barnbougle (really strong group top to bottom)
8.      Ballyneal      St. Andrew's
9.      Barnbougle      Old Mac (perhaps the weakest set)
10.      Ballyneal      Barnbougle
11.      Pac Dunes      High Pointe
12.      Barnbougle      Ballyneal      
13.      Pac Dunes      Barnbougle
14.      Pac Dunes      Ballyneal
15.      Barnbougle      Ballyneal
16.      Ballyneal      Old Mac
17.      Ballyneal      Barnbougle  (with apologies to PD and OM - both holes I like)
18.      Barnbougle      Old Mac

Interested to hear what others have to say, not only on the courses listed, but on those I haven't played.  What other holes would challenge for a spot on the all-18 list?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 05:48:04 PM by Sven Nilsen »
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2011, 06:03:20 PM »
Some potential contenders from Stoneeagle for your composite course:

6. 364 Par 4 - I like it as much as your two selections

8. 501 par 5 - I have not played either of your selections

13 - 548 Par 5 - I would place it behind the Pacific Dunes but ahead of Barnbougle Dunes

18 - 490 Par 4 - I have not played Old Mac and would probably rank it in front of Barnbougle's finishing hole (although it was so windy at Barnbougle I am not sure I can make a reasonable comparison).

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2011, 06:03:37 PM »
For some not as well known ones, I would go with 4 and 11 from Tumble Creek and 6 from Stonewall Old........

Kyle Henderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2011, 06:13:27 PM »
A very good analysis, Svengali.

I've played Ballyneal, Barnbougle Dunes, Pacific Dunes, St. Andrew Beach and Stone Eagle and would pretty much rank them as you have (also pretty much in alphabetical order).

Those 5 courses alone make for a pretty impressive resume. All of them are among the best 30 courses I've played.

Still, I refuse to join the fan club because of the associated moniker...
"I always knew terrorists hated us for our freedom. Now they love us for our bondage." -- Stephen T. Colbert discusses the popularity of '50 Shades of Grey' at Gitmo

Carl Rogers

Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2011, 06:32:11 PM »
I have now played Beechtree (NLE RIP), Riverfront (live 10 minutes from it), Pac Dunes & OM.

Many others can more authoritatively comment on the later two, but there would be many a club very proud to have 12th thru 15th holes at Beechtree or the 10th thru 15th holes at Riverfront to play every day.

Matthew Mollica

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2011, 12:15:10 AM »
Of Tom's courses, I've only played Barnbougle, Cape Kidnappers, and St Andrew's Beach.

There's some stellar holes on Cape Kidnappers which would make their way onto your list of Tom's best 18.

Particularly 4,5,14 and 17.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2011, 12:47:34 AM »
Sven,

The home hole at St Andrews Beach didn't do all that much for you?

I thought it was a fantastic hole.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2011, 12:49:49 AM »
Sven,

The home hole at St Andrews Beach didn't do all that much for you?

I thought it was a fantastic hole.

That is probably my favorite green on that course.  It's very simple, but I don't remember building a green quite like it before.

Mark_F

Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2011, 02:03:24 AM »
St. Andrew's Beach - Wonderful green sites, but the repetitive nature of the downhill drives and uphill approaches gets old. There are a few holes that are extremely challenging (long Par 3 4th, 10th, long Par 4 13th or 14th?).  Stretches of the back nine tend to blend together, but this could be due to only having played the course once two days after a transcontinental flight.

Svengali,

That's a common refrain from people who have only played the course once or twice, but in reality, it isn't quite true.  10, 12, 15 and 17 are really the only holes with that particular happenstance.

One, if you layup in the correct spot the green is level, two the green is below you generally, unless you have driven it, three the green is about the same level as the tee, and around three feet higher than the fairway level, five and seven the green is below you, eight it is level if you are in the right spot, and nine you have the choice to lay back to the middle where you are roughly level with the green, or drive it down into the pocket, where it is above you.

My list of best holes from the 8 courses noted:
   
Hole      Winner      Runner-Up

1.      Ballyneal      Old Mac
2.      Pac Dunes      Ballyneal
3.      Old Mac      Pac Dunes
4.      Barnbougle      Lost Dunes
5.      St. Andrew's   Old Mac (amazing how many of these are par 3's)
6.      Pac Dunes      Barnbougle
7.      Ballyneal      Barnbougle (really strong group top to bottom)
8.      Ballyneal      St. Andrew's
9.      Barnbougle      Old Mac (perhaps the weakest set)
10.      Ballyneal      Barnbougle
11.      Pac Dunes      High Pointe
12.      Barnbougle      Ballyneal      
13.      Pac Dunes      Barnbougle
14.      Pac Dunes      Ballyneal
15.      Barnbougle      Ballyneal
16.      Ballyneal      Old Mac
17.      Ballyneal      Barnbougle  (with apologies to PD and OM - both holes I like)
18.      Barnbougle      Old Mac

Interested to hear what others have to say, not only on the courses listed, but on those I haven't played.  What other holes would challenge for a spot on the all-18 list?

9 and 18 at St Andrews Beach kill the respective holes at Barnbougle.

The home hole at St Andrews Beach didn't do all that much for you?
I thought it was a fantastic hole.

That is probably my favorite green on that course.  It's very simple, but I don't remember building a green quite like it before.

Just one of the reasons why St Andrews Beach is better than Barnbougle.  There is much more variety and originality with the greens.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 03:00:47 AM by Mark Ferguson »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2011, 02:23:43 AM »
Tom, Mark:

In my travels I find I don't see too many great 1st or 18th holes.

St Andrews Beach has both, IMO, and plenty more in between.

Tom: I was told by someone that your crew believes St Andrews Beach is greatly underrated. Is that so?

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2011, 02:45:09 AM »
Scott,

St Andrews Beach is my favorite of all Tom's courses. 
Tim Weiman

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2011, 02:48:29 AM »
Not counting restorations I have played 14 Doak courses and if I were to pick the best 18 holes Apache Stronghold would probably have more than anyone.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Mark_F

Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2011, 03:04:58 AM »
Tom, Mark:

In my travels I find I don't see too many great 1st or 18th holes.

St Andrews Beach has both, IMO, and plenty more in between.
Scott,

Intriguingly, that is often the case, isn't it?  Perhaps RM East and Peninsula South  are the only Sandbelt courses to have a good opening and closing pair.

Silloth does, of course.  :)  Good to see Mr Mayhugh put that one on his bucket list.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2011, 11:31:00 AM »
Tom, Mark:

In my travels I find I don't see too many great 1st or 18th holes.

St Andrews Beach has both, IMO, and plenty more in between.

Tom: I was told by someone that your crew believes St Andrews Beach is greatly underrated. Is that so?

Scott:

My crew, and me, too.  If you take scenery out of the equation, I thought that was the best piece of ground that I've ever routed a course on -- we hardly had to do anything to build it.  Brian and Eric shaped the first 11 greens in less than two weeks!!

Of course, we have worked on five or six other properties that were just spectacular, and it's not surprising that all of those are rated more highly.  The failure of the original ownership group / club certainly didn't help matters -- a course can't be ranked if no one is sure whether it's open or not. 

There are some people who just didn't like it, because the greens are too tricky or because you can't always see the bottom of the flag.  But, I think that what really bothers them is that it's only 6600 yards and they can't post a good score, because of those little details they complain about.  And that, to me, was the whole point, so from my perspective the design was completely successful.  ;)

Rory Connaughton

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2011, 03:06:42 PM »
Beechtree was such a joy. In addition to those identified above I thought 8, 9, 11, 17 & 18 were terrific.
12 at Stonewall is an excellent short par 4 and 4, 14-18 at stonewall north is a great stretch that few have seen outside of SE PA.

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing the Doaks - A Boomerang retrospective
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2011, 09:07:52 PM »
Sven

Am interested that only one OM hole makes your list - I would have thought that possibly may increase with repeat plays ?

Also - I'd suggest there are better closing holes of his than Barnbougle. I agree with Scott that 18 SAB is darn good as is Sebonack.