Macdonald vs. Old Macdonald

[Jim Hoak]

I played National in the past month (for the second or third time) and Chicago Golf yesterday (for the first time).  And I have played Yale recently.  I played Old Macdonald (12 holes when it was nearing completion) a year or two ago.  It got me to thinking--I think I liked Old Macdonald as much or better than the originals.  That's either a compliment to Tom Doak--or I'm crazy.  What do others who have played OM and originals think?

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

What, specifically, did you like about Old Macdonald that makes it as good or better than CBM's courses?

The only CBM course I have played is Old White. I consider Old Macdonald to be the better course because of options, firm playing characteristics and so forth. But I thought the templates were better at Old Macdonald, especially the par 3's and the Cape. Although, at both I find it weird, probably due to some preconceived notions, that the Redan plays longer than the Biarritz. I'd certainly enjoy the chance to play National or the others, but I'm not holding my breath for that opportunity to ever happen.

[Jim Hoak]

I liked the turf and playing conditions of Old Macdonald at least as well as the originals.  The expanse and openness of OM was terrific.  The working in of the copies of holes was very good at OM--it did not feel contrived or phony in any way.  (Of course, you could argue that some of the original holes of Macdonald's were replicas already.)
But I guess what I liked best was the playability of Old Macdonald even in the parts that were not replicas.  I think that Doak got it right in having the entire course feel like Macdonald's courses, even where there is no specific tie back to anything.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

Are you sure you haven't transposed three letters in your name ?

This spring has been extremely wet in the Northeast and I wonder if you didn't play NGLA, Yale and Chicago when they weren't playing at their norm.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I would never come on here and say what Jim just said.

But, if you are questioning the condition of the golf courses, I can say that if you like firm, fast and tight turf, the conditioning of Old Macdonald is better than NGLA, Yale, or Chicago Golf.  All three of those courses have pristine fairways and fast greens, but only NGLA is ever really firm through the green, and the last time I saw it as firm as Old Macdonald was in the early 1980's.  If you don't like links golf, then forget what I just said.

So, perhaps conditioning is as important to people's opinion of architecture as some here have consistently opined.

[Richard Choi]

So, perhaps conditioning is as important to people's opinion of architecture as some here have consistently opined.

I think this is consistently under-rated around here. Conditioning is a HUGE part of a player's experience on the course and is a strong factor in how much he/she enjoys the course.

[Tom_Doak]

So, perhaps conditioning is as important to people's opinion of architecture as some here have consistently opined.

I think this is consistently under-rated around here. Conditioning is a HUGE part of a player's experience on the course and is a strong factor in how much he/she enjoys the course.

Yes ... but, sadly, most people understand good conditioning even less well than they understand good architecture.  The GOLF DIGEST scores for conditioning seem based almost entirely on color and uniformity.  I caught five minutes of the US Open on TV at a restaurant last night, and it looked more like a video game than like real grass.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

I was kidding you and Jim with the three letter reference.

No doubt that conditioning is an important element in the play of the game.

As you know, I also love the element of the wind, and that seems in abundance in Bandon.
NGLA also gets a good share of wind.

This has been a difficult winter and spring in the Northeast.
As I sit typing, sitting in my golf clothes, it's lightening and thundering and raining cats and dogs.
Ever since the doctors cleared me to play golf, it's been raining..

Obviously Bandon enjoys an advantage over Yale, Chicago and NGLA.

The superintendents at Bandon only have to please one man, Mike Keiser, whereas, the superintendents at the other courses have to please an entire membership.  I think that's a tremendous advantage and obviously a luxury.
It's also why I favor dictatorships.

I wonder, if someone of Mike's ilk was the omnipotent dictator at those three, if fast and firm wouldn't become the norm.

Unfortunately, we'll never know, but, one would think, with the Walker Cup two years away, that perhaps NGLA would get more aggressive in that pursuit.

[Jamie Van Gisbergen]

The Redan at Old White does not play as long as the Biarritz.

OK, you're really got me racking my brain here, but I went back and got my scorecard, and on 3 (Biarritz) I hit 6 iron from about 200 and on 8 (Redan) I hit 5 iron from about 210. Not to mention, the PGA site for the Greenbrier Classic lists the yardages as 205 for #3 and 217 for #8. But if I'm wrong about all this, I'll gladly admit to it.

[Richard Choi]

Patrick, I don't think it is just a matter of pleasing the owner. With the fescue/bent mix at Bandon, you can keep it very firm and fast year around (even with all the rain in NW). You really cannot do the same with bent grass greens and poa fairways for big chunks of the year even if you want to.

But fescue/bent leaves the course fairly brown and somewhat patch compared to lush bent grass courses. And if you ask most golfers out there, they would rate many courses above Old Mac just for that conditioning factor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Richard,

I recall courses prior to automated irrigation systems when the grass turned brownish every summer.
I also recall the course conditions when rationing was in effect.

TV and TV alone is responsible for the quest for emerald green in the fairways.

A dictator can accomplish almost anything.
Membership whims usually are the undoing of many a course.

NGLA is hard by the water, thus cooler nights and days and moist breezes are helpful.

And, the course is a seasonal course

[Tom_Doak]

Old Macdonald is built on by far the best soils of any of the courses we're discussing here.

NGLA is a good second.  Chicago Golf Club is a heavy topsoil which is difficult to manage; the superintendent there, Jon Jennings, does a great job but I am confident that he would trade sites with Bandon in a split second.  I've never dug around at Yale, but have to imagine that it's the toughest soils of the four.

[Dave Falkner]

I would imagine that since yale was carved out of a forest it has a very thin layer of topsoil over rock ( at least thats how I remember the place)

[Mac Plumart]

most people understand good conditioning even less well than they understand good architecture

Yes, sir!  Good conditioning for quality golf is not necessarily a well "manicured" golf course.  Great point!

[Lester George]

Jamie,

The reason for the measurement descrepency of number 3 at the Old White is becuase they measure to the middle of the green.  The "middle" of the Biarritz is about 205 but the back pin location on that hole is over 232.  That may help.

Lester

[Jim Franklin]

So, perhaps conditioning is as important to people's opinion of architecture as some here have consistently opined.

I think this is consistently under-rated around here. Conditioning is a HUGE part of a player's experience on the course and is a strong factor in how much he/she enjoys the course.

Yes ... but, sadly, most people understand good conditioning even less well than they understand good architecture.  The GOLF DIGEST scores for conditioning seem based almost entirely on color and uniformity.  I caught five minutes of the US Open on TV at a restaurant last night, and it looked more like a video game than like real grass.

Since Golf Digest recently changed their definition of conditioning, I hope the future scores will reflect that change. I know when I go to a course, brown is good, and lush green is not.

[Mark Smolens]

On this discussion board Jim is correct, but I fear that the general public will never get it.

Listening to local sports radio on the way home from work last night. Morons discussing why they didn't watch the US Open (blowout), then conversation turned to why they don't watch the Open Championship. Courses are "ugly," "why would anyone want to play there?"  Mr. Hyler's "brown is the new green" program will have a difficult time capturing the average American golfer's fancy, much to the detriment of the game and its future. . .

[Dave McCollum]

My only point of reference is Old Mac.  Sadly, I have not played any of CBM’s tracks, but a handful of the original holes used for inspiration.  Old Mac doesn’t do any disservice to the originals.  I was at Bandon ten days ago, during prep for the Pub Links, and I thought all four were superbly conditioned and designed links.  If Trails isn’t a links, I don’t care.  It’s a wonderful course.  I also walked the 13-hole Preserve short course with C&C’s lead associate, David Zinkand.  It’s going to be great fun, spectacular golf with just the right amount of quirk.  That place just keeps getting better and better.

[Bill Brightly]

Perhaps we could re-phrase the question and try to guess how CB Macdonald would respond! My bet is that he would really love the conditions at Old Macdonald but never give it the nod ablove NGLA. However, he probably would rate it higher than every one of the MacRaynors on inland sites. I have never played Piping Rock, so that would be an interesting comparison.