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TEPaul

Unusual Strategic Choices
« on: January 15, 2011, 07:13:37 PM »
What are the seemingly smallest or perhaps most inconsequential strategic choices you feel you have ever been faced with in golf?

I suspect most will not even understand what I'm referring to so I will offer up an example or so.

My old friend, John Ott, the former Mayor of Pine Valley who lived along side the ninth hole for about 35 years often found himself in some situations (lies) that were unusual to say the least (particularly on the 7th hole's "Hell's Half Acre").

He actually seemed to take delight in these kinds of lies and situations and how to extricate himself from them!

J. O. is gone now and sadly I can no longer call him and discuss this with him but it seems to me that he loved the idea that one shot should always follow another shot and that somehow the reliance on the Unplayable Ball Rule should not be so much part of golf as it is or at least that using it is often nowhere near as interesting or as much fun as figuring out some creative way of hitting some really unusual shot from a complicated situation.

I can't tell you how many times I saw him take out his putter and just pop a shot at the ball even if that meant at best expectation moving it no more than a few feet even within a bunker.

When I think of some of those situations he found himself in I realize even Tiger Woods could not get more out of an actual shot than John did with something like popping at the top of his ball with a putter and moving it perhaps a few feet to a place he could then go from.

Using all the options of the Unplayable Ball relief rule may've done him better in the long run but he just didn't seem naturally inclined to use it.

What are some of the oddest strategic choices you've ever been faced with and used?

« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 07:17:55 PM by TEPaul »

Tim Bert

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2011, 08:12:18 PM »
I think playing the occasional round with a limited number of clubs is a great way to discover unusual strategic choices. I mean a really limited number of clubs like 1 or 3 as opposed to 8 or 10.  I remain convinced that the opposite handed chip/blast with the back side of my 4-iron hybrid  out of a bunker is one of my best strategic options  to a short-sided pin after playing some one club last year. I can't wait to try it out when the situation dictates that shot in a "regular" round of golf.  This sounds silly, but I am serious. I am not a great high-lofted soft landing wedge shot player out of the bunker, but the chip/blast worke nicely. It helps that the Cleveland hybrid in question has an inverted back side which acts like a nicely lofted club.

Aside from that one particular shot, playing a round or two with 1, 2, or 3 clubs really makes you think outside the box.

TEPaul

Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2011, 08:13:50 PM »
Shivas:

A TREE??!!

God help us! You know as well as I do or Melvyn does, things like TREES do not really belong on any golf course in the world!

Pete_Pittock

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2011, 08:36:06 PM »
    I got tennis mixed up with golf the only time I played Pebble Beach. On #8 after a lood drive I proceeded to hit a top spin lob which cleared the chasm but ended up in the bunker with "no shot" because of overhangs. I putted to the center of the bunker and then got it up and down.
    Watched someone play #7 at The OGA Course at Tukwila. His drive was just short of the crossing water hazard at the base of a steep hill. No play forward because of high grass in the hazard, UL reliefs would result in steep downhill lies or in trees so he played back towards the tees to the top of the hill near the 150 marker. From there he made it up and down for par.
   Also at the OGA course on the 4th hole a drive left over the bunkers into the hazard results in relief which gives you a hanging lie under fir tree branches. Your shot has to clear a creek and avoid forest left and water hazard right. I have taken opposite side relief under 26-1/c onto the 5th hole which results in a relative stress free shot which leaves a decent chance of an up and down. I've never seen anyone else do it because of the 300 yd walk to do so.

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2011, 08:49:48 PM »
Neat thread, Tom.

One of my greatest memories is playing with Mr. Ott at Pine Valley, more than 10 years ago now... how time flies.

Anyway, many years ago, my golf game improved ten-fold after reading Tom Watson discuss this very subject. If my memory serves correct, Watson was talking about his Open championship successes, and how he simply enjoys playing EVERY shot, no matter where his ball lies. This is a very important lesson. If you're a true golfer, like Mr. Ott, you should simply revel in playing EVERY shot you're presented with.

That's golf.
jeffmingay.com

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2011, 08:55:40 PM »
Tom,

Do you mean like aiming for the greenside bunker when there is a low chance of holding the green? This does assume the player has the skills to take advantage of the situation.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2011, 08:58:31 PM by RSLivingston_III »
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Brett_Morrissy

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2011, 09:04:18 PM »
Tom,
StAB, very long 12th, hit 2nd shot into deep RHS FW bunker, wind erosion had caused the FWside of the bunker to erode this massive 4ft lip, the wind had blown the sand to fill from Green side lip edge back to the FW edge a nice slope, my ball had only just caught the top of the lip, it then rolled all the way back down the bunker and underneath the lip to the rear or FW edge of the bunker, I could not get anywhere on the left side of ball, or for that matter, anywhere that allowed me to hit the ball toward the green, or adjacent FW, or even back wards, I played a very fluffy 'flop' shot behind and to the right about 8 foot to find the only piece of cut grass available, it was my shot of the day. Taking an unplayable was out of the question :)
Is this the kind of shot you mean?

You mentioned PV, I am curious to hear about how the 'no unplayable' rule works in practice at PV?
- does it end with many putting a second ball in play? Sometimes a golf ball does seem to find a way to be inextricable from some grass species with a golf club, no matter the shots in your reportoire...
@theflatsticker

TEPaul

Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2011, 09:36:26 PM »
"Anyway, many years ago, my golf game improved ten-fold after reading Tom Watson discuss this very subject. If my memory serves correct, Watson was talking about his Open championship successes, and how he simply enjoys playing EVERY shot, no matter where his ball lies. This is a very important lesson. If you're a true golfer, like Mr. Ott, you should simply revel in playing EVERY shot you're presented with.

That's golf."




Jeff:

I think that post of yours is pretty much part and parcel of the message of this thread. On the subject of Watson, I will not forget that at the big dinner of one of the senior member/guest tournaments at PV, Sandy Tatum was called on to get up and speak.

He spoke about Watson and his architectural and personal relationship with him and Sandy said that he had come to know many tournament pros and most of them were spoilt and complaintive of much of the unfortunate things that happened to them with golf but that Watson was so much the opposite of that mentality.

His example was that when most all tournament pros came up to their ball and found it in an unfortunate or complicated lie they would complain about something or someone but when Watson found his ball in that kind of lie he would invariably just wink and say;
"Watch this!"

mike_beene

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2011, 03:02:55 AM »
on 16 at Pasatiempo I was on the top tier,the hole on the middle tier and there was no way to stop the ball on the second tier so I putted it into the short rough which left me a 10 foot chip for par instead of a 60 foot approach back up a steep hill.Can't remember of I made the little chip which means I probably didn't.

Doug Siebert

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2011, 04:49:24 AM »
There's a situation that happens all over, and that's where you put yourself into a position where you are above the hole and the green is so quick in combination with the slope that there's almost no possibility of stopping the ball near the hole.  You can take a big risk and try to do so, but if you leave the ball more than a couple feet above the hole you may three putt from there.

So the decision is, do I hope for a slow roller to get lucky and hit an imperfection in the green around or just below the hole, or do I hit it hard enough that it'll definitely roll past....obviously you want to do this if the slope softens or the fringe occurs a reasonable distance below the hole, because there isn't any value to leaving yourself a 50 footer :)

Where it gets really interesting is if you are off the green, and a playing partner has a ball below the hole conveniently located where you may hit it.  If I'm in that situation you may notice I'm walking awfully fast and not taking much time over my shot, because damned if I want that ball marked before I can play ;D
My hovercraft is full of eels.

Doug Wright

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 03:05:57 PM »
Tom,

Interesting thread that found its way to page 2 too quickly...

One choice that I make that others I play with often find unusual is using a putter or fairway metal from a greenside bunker. Not always available of course but I consider this and will use it if available. Maybe I'm such a lousy sand wedge player that I default to this more often than I should but it's fun to pull off, especially with skeptics observing, and I've had some good results including hole-outs and tap-ins.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Joe Bausch

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2011, 03:38:46 PM »
The most unusual strategic choice I ever read came from one of those interviews at the back of Golf Digest about 10 years ago with Doug Sanders.  He was asked the greatest shot he ever saw.  You might think it was from some major (well, not his putt at the Open Championship!), but it wasn't.  It involved one of his gumbahs playing in their weekend money round at his club out in the midwest (I think Kansas or something).  This fellow he was playing was down to some serious bucks and on the last hole needed a win or else.  He had hit his drive right and had a tree pretty much directly in front of him that he could not negotiate to get on the green.  So he just stood there with club in hand and waited.... Sanders thought to allow a train to be coming by on the right, to pass by to not disturb some duck hook he looked to want to play.  No, this fellow waited until the moving train could serve as a bankboard to ricochet off the locomotive and onto the green.  And he pulled it off.
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
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Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2011, 03:42:02 PM »
I think playing the occasional round with a limited number of clubs is a great way to discover unusual strategic choices. I mean a really limited number of clubs like 1 or 3 as opposed to 8 or 10.  I remain convinced that the opposite handed chip/blast with the back side of my 4-iron hybrid  out of a bunker is one of my best strategic options  to a short-sided pin after playing some one club last year. I can't wait to try it out when the situation dictates that shot in a "regular" round of golf.  This sounds silly, but I am serious. I am not a great high-lofted soft landing wedge shot player out of the bunker, but the chip/blast worke nicely. It helps that the Cleveland hybrid in question has an inverted back side which acts like a nicely lofted club.

Aside from that one particular shot, playing a round or two with 1, 2, or 3 clubs really makes you think outside the box.

Tim:

Going to have to ask you your sources for the invention of the reverse hybrid sand shot.  In the world of golf academia, one must be careful to footnote appropriately.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tim Bert

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2011, 03:53:55 PM »
I think playing the occasional round with a limited number of clubs is a great way to discover unusual strategic choices. I mean a really limited number of clubs like 1 or 3 as opposed to 8 or 10.  I remain convinced that the opposite handed chip/blast with the back side of my 4-iron hybrid  out of a bunker is one of my best strategic options  to a short-sided pin after playing some one club last year. I can't wait to try it out when the situation dictates that shot in a "regular" round of golf.  This sounds silly, but I am serious. I am not a great high-lofted soft landing wedge shot player out of the bunker, but the chip/blast worke nicely. It helps that the Cleveland hybrid in question has an inverted back side which acts like a nicely lofted club.

Aside from that one particular shot, playing a round or two with 1, 2, or 3 clubs really makes you think outside the box.

Tim:

Going to have to ask you your sources for the invention of the reverse hybrid sand shot.  In the world of golf academia, one must be careful to footnote appropriately.

Sven - it was just some drunk guy. He probably wouldn't want his name published here.

Mark McKeever

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2011, 04:10:53 PM »
I still need to take a lefty set out and try to play 18 holes with it.  Ive done a few holes in the past, but don't have the patience to do all 18!

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2011, 05:03:26 PM »
TEPaul,

I was playing in a match, my foursome against two other foursomes, and additional matches whereby each member of my foursome was paired with me in two man matches against other two man teams from the other foursomes.  In addition, I had some individual matches with members of the other foursomes.

On the 8th hole we thought that the foursome in front of us had birdied the hole, a 160 yard par 3.
After the other members of my team hit their shots, I hit mine.... for a hole in one.

But, that wasn't the best shot of the day.

On the 16th hole, another par 3 of about 185 yards,  the other 3 members of my team all hit mediocre to poor shots.
I then hit an iron which embeded in the face of the right side front bunker.

The ball was totally embeded in the steep face of the bunker with only a small portion of the ball visible.
Fortunately, I could take a fairly normal stance since the ball was closer to the bottom of the bunker.

Upon arriving at the bunker, the caddy handed me my L-Wedge and my partners said, "just get it out somewhere on the green and maybe you'll make the putt."

I then put the L-Wedge back in my bag, and took out my Tommy Armour IMGT blade putter and walked into the bunker to my ball.

My partners walked into the bunker, and said, "what are you doing"  I said, "I'm going to take the my putter, turn it sideways, and hit behind the ball with an upward swing"  They then grabbed me and said, "Not with our money.  There's no way we're going to let you hit that shot".  I said, "Listen, I know what I'm doing.  I can't even move that ball with an L-Wedge, now stand back and get out of my way."  After a mini-conference, they left the bunker, grumbling to themselves.

I then took my stance, a wider stance, aimed about 2-3 inches behind and below the ball, and swung pretty hard.
Lo and behold, the ball flew out of that incredibly bad lie to about 3 feet from the hole, whereupon I made the putt for par.

They looked at themselves in disbelief.

Then they turned to me and said, "You must have practiced that shot 1,000 times."
I said, "That's the first time I ever tried it."
They said, "What ?  With all the money on the line, you tried a shot you'd never tried before ?
Where did you learn it ?"

I said, "last night I woke up at 2:00 am and couldn't go back to sleep, so I turned on the TV.
At about 4:00 am, Chi Chi Rodriquez comes on and says that he's had this lie many times and that he's never been able to get the ball out until now, when he discovered this new shot, which he demonstrated.  He said, you have to have a blade like putter to execute this shot.  So, when I saw my ball in the bunker, the lie looked exactly like the lies on TV that night, so, I decided to try it.  And, to my surprise, the damned shot worked.  And, Just think, If I hadn't woken up and watched TV, we'd have a lot less money in our wallets."

A few weeks later I was playing at Southern Hills for the first time.
My hosts, really terrific guys, had been inviting me for years, telling me what a great course SH was and how difficult it was.
I had birdied # 1, parred # 2 and birdied # 3.  As we walked to the 4th tee I kidded them and said, "I thought you said this was a difficult golf course"  They grumbled and groaned.  On # 4 I hit a good tee shot, then, trying to get my approach between the front of the green and the hole, buried my approach in the fronting bunker.  When we reached the bunker, my hosts, now busting my chops, said, "we don't play unplayables in the bunkers here"  When I walked into the bunker with my Tommy Armour IMGT blade putter, the look on their faces was priceless.  They had no idea as to why I had a putter in my hand.  I think they thought I was going to line up a potential putt from the front of the green to the hole.

When I took my stance, their faces were really puzzled.
I then turned the club sideways, swung, and lo and behold, the ball ended up a foot from the hole.

What followed was quizical language unfit for print.
"Holly S,  What the F ?  Are you F'n kidding me ?
They asked, "How in the hell did you do that ?"
They said, "oh yeah, do it again and one of the fellows came into the bunker and threw a ball down into the sand such that it was very well embedded.  I then repeated the shot, this time, not quite so close, but still in one putt range.
They asked, "how often do you practice that shot ?"
I said, that's the second time I've attempted it."
They couldn't believe it.
They then all entered the bunker and said, "TEACH US THAT SHOT !"

To which I said, "The minimum opening bid is $ 100"  They all reached into their pockets and produced $ 100.
I told them to put their cash back in their pockets and that I wouldn't charge them, on one condition.
They said,  "what's the condition ?"  I said, "that you promise to keep the shot to yourself, and, that you don't claim that you invented shot, and that you tell them who taught you the shot."  They all agreed and were amazed at how easy the shot was to execute once you commit to it mentally.

There's another great shot that Peter Kostis showed me, but, that's for another time as I'm off to dinner.
 

Bill_McBride

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2011, 07:27:43 PM »
I was going to say how much I love to finesse a bellied sand wedge off the froghair above the hole, but how the hell are you going to follow a story like the one Mr. Mucci just told?

Steve Lang

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #17 on: January 17, 2011, 08:52:54 PM »
20 years ago when we moved from NW Ohio to SE TX, trading I-75 for I-45, it was culture shock, but the most pressing issue was dealing with bermuda grasses..  in one of my first MGA tourneys at WCC i had my ball propped up on some wirey bermuda rough after a good drive on a long par 5 (13th West Course.. water right from 150 yards out).. now I don't really try to go for such holes in two, especially from rough, and normally play safe of the water, but it just looked so good... kinda tee'd up in the air, that i just reached for my driver and without hesitation sent it up the left side of the fairway, farther than ever seen, a chip and putt for birdie.. that good contact, that center of club feel.. nice when you can get it.  never played that kinda shot in the north.. use it every chance I get down here..


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Malcolm Mckinnon

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #18 on: January 17, 2011, 08:55:16 PM »
Hi!

First post ever on GCA.

I too knew John Ott. He was a member of our Philadelphia Wool and Textile Association which plays monthly outings around the Philadelphia region. I believe he used to sponsor the annual Gulph Mills event in August when most of the regular members were away.

I'm not sure if this qualifies as a strategic choice or not.

Many years ago I hit a fat approach to a short par 4 at my home course in Princeton, NJ. After much searching we discovered the ball nestled on the evergreen branches of a yew bush. The ball was suspended about 5 feet above the ground about seven yards from the green with a bunker in between. Without hesitation, I grabbed a wedge, took a stance facing square to the ball with my back to the green, opened the clubface to flat and swung upwards into the branch and ball.

The ball released in a soft arc, cleared the bunker and came to rest within 8 feet of the flag. Made the put for par.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2011, 09:11:10 PM »

The ‘Lack of substance in the Penal direction’

Melvyn

Doug Siebert

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Re: Unusual Strategic Choices
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2011, 01:07:33 AM »
I can attest that Patrick's shot does work - and I'm pretty sure I got it from Chi Chi as well.  I believe from Golf or Golf Digest back in the early/mid 80s.  I hit the ball really high, so I get buried more often than average, and in the right kind of lie this is a really handy shot to have.  I don't think its quite as easy as Patrick makes it out to be, you have to be pretty damn accurate to catch the ball on a narrow blade, so if there's a lot of room to roll out I'll usually hit a slightly hooded PW as that leaves a nearly infinite margin for error.  I suppose a lot depends on exactly what type of putterhead you have.

Its more fun if you hide what club you're bringing in the bunker with you, and just have people see the result after seeing the lie and wondering how the hell you did it.  Its a lot of fun having them reproduce the lie and fail miserably with a wedge.  However, if they don't see you do it, don't be surprised if some jerk accuses you of cheating - which also makes it a handy way to identify jerks!

Note that it does NOT work if the sand is heavy and wet,  you'll bust your putter!
My hovercraft is full of eels.