[Rich Goodale]

Bob

The 16th hole was lengthened at some fairly recent point in time, although I'm not sure if it wa as late as 1925.  There used to be one tee, about 50yards forward of the current one, on the other side of the the dry stane dyke.  Maybe they made Crane play from there because they were getting tired of his petty niggling?

Rich

[BCrosby]

Rich -

Not sure I understand. A one time there was a single tee, 50 yards in front of the current 16th tee, that served the 16th, 17th and 18th??

Compounding my confusion is that the 16th played to 397 yards for Crane in 1923 or so. A yardage very close to the hole's modern yardage.

Bob

[Rich Goodale]

Bob

I assumed that he was talking about one tee per hole (vs. multiple tees).  A the 17th and 18th are sequential and in essentially the sme direction, it is absurd to think they ever were served by one tee (to do so, they 18th would be over 700 yards long and would required a 400 yard walk back from the 17th green to the 17th/18th tee.

What he might have been referring to is the fact that when the 17th green was shared with the first, the 18th and 2nd tees might have been one, although my diagrams of the course in 1877 and 1895 don't show that (18, however, would have requjried a drive across the 1/17 double green, which would be a bit goofy, even to us wingnuts....).

Rich

[BCrosby]

Rich -

I think you are right. Crane must mean that there is only one tee per hole. The problem with that for Crane was that shorter players were forced to tack along the fw's in a way not required of longer players. On first reading, I had thought previous iterations of the holes required you to play all three holes from the same tee. Or something.

Bob

[Sean_A]

I was just browsing Bernardo's Golf Courses when I stumbled upon these little ditties which I had never noticed before and which support Tom D's point.

Concerning #1:  "Our terror is perhaps less acute at the first hole, because we are then playing on the part of the green that is furthest from the sea; but even so great trouble may befall us."

Concerning #16 - seems to strongly suggest to me that the double plateau of today didn't exist in 1910ish.

At the sixteenth we cross (meaning the tee is on the 15th green side of the wall)  the wall once more, and may hope to reach in two shots the "Gate" hole, standing on another plateau - an exceedingly diminutive one, by the way-close to the high road."

Ciao

    

[Mike_Cirba]

The descriptions of the 16th back then sound more like 15 at KIngsley Club.

[Steve Salmen]

The peaks of the 16th at NB lie considerably higher than the area around the green.  Is there a green in the US with the same quality?  The three Biarritz holes I've played in the US  do not have this quality.  The flat portions of the green are the same elevation as the surrounding area but the dip in the middle is considerably lower.  I'd love to know if anything like 16 exits here.

BTW  one of my most memorable shots was holing with a putter to back hole location from short and left on 16.

[Steve Salmen]

Mike,

15 at Kingsley is about 100 yards longer.  I think the second there is quite a bit more difficult.  However, I think the green is similarly elevated from the front and left and right sides.  It also plays similarly hard and fast so a run up is possible.

[George_Bahto]

great call Tom - as you suspected all along

I've been contending for a long time the NB-16th was the inspiration for the Macdonald double plateau holes ....................  if not wholly, certainly, in part

this fella would probably agree

[Tyler Kearns]

George,

Marty Brodeur set the record a few nights ago with win No. 552 (not 522)!!

TK

[George_Bahto]

tyler - thanks - just a typo - i should know better ----  i was there!! 

[TEPaul]

I think the first question for a subject like this one (Was NB's #16 swale the inspiration for the swale in Macdonald's Biarritzes?) is whether or not the famous 12th hole at Golf de Biarritz (famous Chasm par 3 hole across the Bay of Biscay) had a prominent swale in it.

If Macdonald saw that hole which he obviously did because he mentioned it in his well-known article in Outing Magazine in 1906 about an ideal course (published before he bought the land for NGLA) I think we'd have to assume it was the architectural product of the Dunns and apparently from 1888.

I have never seen anyone answer that question with authority or any real textual, drawing or photographic documentation. I have seen an old photo or drawing of that hole but I believe it was from the tee and it is basically impossible to make out what was on the green or green-end as far as a prominent swale is concerned.

And even though he was certainly familiar with North Berwick I'm not aware that Macdonald ever mentioned a prominent swale in #16 or that he used that idea from it anywhere. Is anyone aware of that? 

This is how Macdonald described in 1906 his architectural thinking regarding the 12th hole at Biarritz:

"210 yards.   Suggested by the 12th Biarritz, making sharp hogback in middle of course. Stop 30 yards from hole bunkered to the right of the green and good low ground to the left of plateau green."

[Rich Goodale]

Tom

I remember a few pictures posted in a discussion of this topic 3-4 years ago and the asnwer seemed to be "no," except in a very figuarative sense.

Rich

[TEPaul]

"I remember a few pictures posted in a discussion of this topic 3-4 years ago and the asnwer seemed to be "no," except in a very figuarative sense."


Rich:

I agree. There is a description of the 12th hole at Biarritz on the Internet by Robert Muir Graves and Geoffrey Cornish in which they seem to imply there was a swale in that original 12th hole at Biarritz but their implication seems to be speculation or at least just implication and not documentation.

Frankly, the only America Biarritz hole I've ever seen that remotely looks like that famous 12th hole at Biarrtiz is Raynor's 5th hole at Fishers Island.

[Ally Mcintosh]

We have mentioned that North Berwick was known as "The Biarritz of the North", haven't we?

[TEPaul]

Ally:

If WE have it would probably be appropriate to try to track back WHEN it first became know as that. If it was after Macdonald's mention of it in the early 20th century, for our purposes of what he was thinking about it would be moot or irrelevent.

[Ally Mcintosh]

But an interesting coincidence with regards to this thread, nonetheless...

However, it could be relevant because it was the 1870's and 1880's that the town advertised itself as such... Could well have been known as that when CBM was staying in St Andrews

[Simon Holt]

Tony Muldoon asked me to have a look at this and throw my two pennies worth in.  Hopefully this doesnt light a fire!

1)  Yes.  NB was marketed as the Biarritz of the North.  Package holidays hadnt been invented so lots of people summered here.  The town was rammed every year and beaches were full of bathers hence the comparison to Biarritz in the much warmer South West corner of France.

2) I have seen on this site somewhere and physically myself (it hangs in the starters hut) a map dated 1930s that shows many different holes from today's course.  The most relevant being that the 16th green was just ONE green with no swale.  There is a strong NB conection with through golfers going to Biarritz but if anything the green disign migrated the other way as far as I can tell.  My parent's next door neighbour is Douglas Seaton who is currently Tantallon club captain and amateur historian.  He has wrote many books on the town's golfing history.  I will ask him this week and get back with some hard evidence to draw a line under this if it already hasnt been done in another thread.

Another issue is Muirfields layout changes over the years which I will start a properly researched thread on in the coming months hopefully.  Had a look at some maps in the locker room which made very interesting viewing!

Hope this helped Tony!

[TEPaul]

Macdonald did mention that the inspiration for his so named Biarritz hole was the 12th at Biarritz that played over the Bay of Biscay to a green beyond. However it does not seem there was a prominent swale on that green beyond. So, does that mean he got the idea for the prominent swale from the 16th at NB? Perhaps.

I wish I could remember where exactly I read this but I'll offer it as an alternative theory anyway as to where he may've been inspired by a large swale fronting or in the middle of a green. Apparently there was another green at that course in Biarritz France that had that famous 12th hole that played across the Bay of Biscay that had a prominent swale in it; it just wasn't the famous 12th at Biarritz France.

[Mike Cirba]

Not sure if this sheds any light, but indeed Macdonald did seem inspired somehow by the hole at Biarritz;

"I have formulated plans for more than eighteen holes, the last choice to be dependent on the ground selected, and the inspiration for the plans has been supplied in many instances by links not in the championship group. The idea for one hole comes from Biarrltz. The hole in question is not a good one, but it revealed a fine and original principle that will be incorporated in my selection." - CBM, June 1906

[BCrosby]

Thanks Mike.

This old thread reminds me of how sorry I am that Rich Goodale no longer posts here. He is missed.

Bob

[Mike Cirba]

Bob,

Amen to that.

[Jim Nugent]

Mike and Bob, I third the motion. 

[Niall C]

He may no longer post but he does continue to lurk. Hopefully one day.........

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