Should Govt get out of the golf course ownership business ?

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Let me just say this -- if the places that are warmer and have less congestion/issue such as you state (which I believe you didn't ID) -- the best bet is to hire certain Jersey people because they will make sure what happened "back home" won't repeat itself there.

[archie_struthers]

 

Uh oh , we ramped it up agiain !  I'd like to think Matt has taken a sampling of the residents who are leaving and not just giving the Democratic company line.  It sure seems we are replacing high income earners with less affluent voters and workers . This causes less revenue and more expense .  Remember I'm not even close to being a Republican

Certainly the warm weather contributes to the exodus , but used to be the Florida home was the second home , this is reversed now and it isn't cause it's cheaper here.  But we are way off topic here.

We're still  waiting for an answer as to why the government has to own high end golf courses , and not just entry level facilities.

In our area , every government owned golf course loses money , including the dinky municipal in Ocean City. the msot expensive ones lose the most. ( there are four I am thinking of)


 About twenty ago the city reported losing almost $250,000 on the 11 hole muni in town. It's a glorified chip and putt .. but fun and good for kids and beginners or to practice a little.  I offered them a lease of $50,000 to take it over and guaranteed not to raise the prices for 5 years . i was summarily dismissed as a troublemaker and told they had no interest in givng up control of the asset. This was my first ecxperience with politics , and boy oh boy it's still the same today. In this instance we had guys working there making 50-60 k cutting the grass , this in 1992 ....our assistant superintendent doesn't make that today , and he is really good and works 70 hour weeks in the ......but this doesn't happen anymore.....lol

[Craig Van Egmond]

Oh come on... "the situation"  --> New Jersey --> Jersey Shore?     You guys are way too serious!!

 

[archie_struthers]

 

Craig ....he's in North Joisey LOL


see George Pazin's above ..

[Matt_Ward]

Archie:

Come out of the self-imposed coma and amnesia show - ok ?

The people leaving are doing so because of jobs being created elsewhere. The situation with the Pharma industry is case in point. They decided that other locations were beneficial to them. The concept of whether gov't runs public courses was not thei chief emphasis by any means.

Archie, with all due respect, is something wrong with your reading comprehension ? I never supported the llikes of a Chambers Bay. I do support what Monmouth, Morris and Somerset Counties do here in NJ. If the courses in YOUR area are not making $$ -- it's likely they are mismanaged or making serious other errors. Send them to the counties I just mentioned above.

Archie, try to realize this -- you have experienced gross errors on the part of the people running the show there. You seem to think all others are similar. Let me clue you in -- they're not.

[archie_struthers]

 

hey Matt ....it's obvious that you are becoming more clueless now , and more caustic.  No one said people are leaving NJ because of governent owned courses ...they are just a small part of the underlying problem....the state has systematically mismanaged the pension funds , income tax , and educational funding for decades ...and you want to give them a longer leash and more control... are you kidding me..

if you think NJ is clean politically , you are living in a bubble....it's one of the most corrupt states in the history of the republic....this doesn't mean I think you are corrupt , or your neighbor , or even half the people in govenrment , but the process has corrupted NJ look at Project Labor ....what a joke ..it doubles many construction costs on govenment projects ... I keep naming them but you refuse to read it...yet castigate me for non comprehension ...I'll tell you what we can play scrabble and then golf , and I'll play you even  in both !  Don't thnik golf is a walkover and even though I'm a senior in May I'll play the tips   LOL

 but it's been bad here for a long time...Christie might do a good job , but the juries still out and he won't be getting much help from the Dems to be sure.....once again I don't trust either party, with good reason...you shouldn't either...

Do me a favor and get me the financials for one of the golf courses you mention...are they online??  If the taxpayers own them , shouldn't they be readily available.....best guess is that they aren't making much money .......who's paying the loan, and is it part of the analysis...you know what you are right ..no matter how much sod I can lay over this one we are not going to agree...so this is really teh end ..you can have the last word ....no malice ...merry christmas

[Jason Topp]

Interesting discussion. 

I've been a part of these issues from a few different directions.

On the golf course side - I was introduced to the game on municipal courses and probably would not be playing today if it weren't for the existence of low cost decent quality courses that municipalities can provide.  I think that a golf course can be thought of as a park (which generates no revenue but adds considerably to the value of a community).  If government can build tennis courts and baseball fields, I do not see why government should not also build golf courses.

In my work world, however, I have experienced first hand the problems that arise when communities compete in an industry that is already highly competitive.  (In my case broadband infrastructure).  If the public competitor fails, the entire community winds up covering the loss.  Perhaps for this reason, the financial projections of public broadband initiatives tend to be unrealisticly optimistic and the risks to the public tend to be inadequately communicated.  (e.g. look up Utopia)  Private companies doing the investing may not be smarter, but we have had to take the lumps associated with overly optimistic projections and have become much more rigorous as a result (see fiber glut from around 2000).

I have also experienced how permitting issues can become much more complicated for the private party when the government is both doing the permitting and the competing.  I have also experienced the incredible power government employees have in connection with issues that draw little interest from the general public.  I won't go into details in this forum but Archie's experience is not unique and applies in many realms.

The best rule of thumb I can apply is that if a public golf course would provide an opportunity to the public that would not otherwise exist from private industry, then I think building affordable golf for community residents is an acceptable policy.   

[Jason Topp]

This might be of interest:

http://www.cunninglyclevergolfoperator.com/wordpress/index.php/2010/12/surge-in-privatization-of-municipal-golf-courses/

[archie_struthers]

 

Jason , you 've said it all , and quite eloquently I might add!

[Jason Topp]

Jason , you 've said it all , and quite eloquently I might add!

Of course the hard part is applying the general rule to any specific situation.

[Matt_Ward]

Archie:

You think I'm caustic ! Then, with all due respect, you must be lost.

Go online and you can access the courses / counties I mentioned. Of course Archie, in your world -- everyone and every institution is either on the take, incompetent or both. You got burned in your neck of the woods and therefore you feel entitled to believe that no other group or institution can be doing the right thing for the right reasons. That is BS big time and cynical to the max.

Archie, the good news is that here in NJ people do care enough about corruption that people actually do get caught and prosecuted. Let me point out if you see illegal actions happening in your area simple solution -- pick up the phone and call the AG's office. Unlike other states which thumb their elite noses at NJ -- but the same BS -- and likely even worse -- is happening there.

Happy to compete in Scrabble or golf -- matters not to me. But what does that have to do with the topic at-hand. Archie, you have a MEGA CHIP ON YOUR SHOULDER on what you saw and faced. I never minimized it -- I do take strong exception with you that someone all government related golf is a waste of time. I support what the three counties I mentioned do in NJ -- they have done exceptionally well and frankly when you see their operation and have to admit othersie I'll be smiling in the background.

Merry Xmas partner ...