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Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« on: February 14, 2002, 12:49:08 PM »
I recentley read that when the guys at WS tried to count the bunkers at the Straits course they lost count at 700. :o

My question is: Does the Straits course hold the record for most bunkers on a golf course? If there is one with more bunkers i'd be amazed!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2002, 12:57:54 PM »
Do they maintain all of these bunkers in a certain fashion, or are they allowed to just "create" themselves with the Lake Michigan winds? My professor told us a story about when he was there that there were employees shoveling sand back into the bunkers that fronted the lake cause the wind eroded all the sand out of them. What a maintenace nightmare....typical Pete Dye. I wonder how they'll be maintained for the 2004 PGA?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2002, 01:13:08 PM »
I'm sure they have equipment like we have at The Ocean Course including sweepers that will sweep the sand off the greens and fairways after storms blow through.  Here at The Ocean Course, we only have one bunker...  it's about three miles long...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2002, 01:18:23 PM »
You know you are in for it when you see the bunkers on the berm guarding the parking lot when you roll in the front entrance. My first impression of the place was Kiawah on LSD. The last time I was there a few years ago sand was being replaced. A torrential 10" rainfall had washed out many of the hillside bunkers. I'm not sure if this was during the same time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2002, 01:28:25 PM »
Patrick:

Amazingly enough, when I was there this past fall, and was
able to meet Pete Dye while he was getting the course
ready for the PGA, he was ADDING bunkers!  Most of these
seemed to be in the landing areas.  

That was a really great day.  Enjoyed a nice round of golf
with my wife, shot 75 from the blues, and got to meet
Pete Dye.  :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2002, 01:29:59 PM »
The way Pete thinks, you'd never guess that he's 75...sometimes he doesn't know when to stop tinkering!!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2002, 05:32:04 PM »
i think WS makes Kiawah look like a minimalist design..hehe... but i'd still love to know if there is a course in the world with more bunkers
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2002, 06:44:43 PM »
I doubt that anyone keeps an official count of who has the most bunkers.  

WS has too many bunkers IMHO.  The landscaping is over the top.  I agree with Patrick when you are driving in to WS you are driving between pancake flat farm land and the entrance is marked by sand dunes and bunkers.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2002, 06:03:29 AM »
That's the topography of the area...  At least it is on the better side of the lake (Michigan).  There's slight rolling farmland for miles approaching the coast then, about a 1/2 mile out the dunes start.  Along Michigan's western shore, the dunes run about 100 feet high off the lake and when you get up near Traverse City, the hop up to around 300 feet in and around Sleeping Bear dunes.  I grew up in western Michigan and spend almost all of my summers on the lake where we used to think it was absolutely balmy when the water temps got above 65...  Summers in Michigan consist of two weeks of bad ice skating... 8) 8) 8)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2002, 06:13:41 AM »
I still think the man is a genius.  I haven't played any of his courses but all the pictures I have seen get my mind racing and thinking!!  His book is well worth a read.  Believe it or not I think it is a very good architectural book to read as well.

Genius...nothing else to it...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2002, 06:27:38 AM »
Mike,
You never made it over to the Wisco side of the lake. The site, a former army base, was a dead flat bluff like most of the western shore. Dye hauled in all the sand - some astronomical amount of truckloads - the number escapes me right now. We are not blessed with the same dunes as the south and east side of the Great Michigan Ocean.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2002, 07:10:47 AM »
Mike from Kiawah:
   I'm also from west Michigan, Hudsonville, to be exact. Where did you grow up and play your golf? I know that you went to MSU, where I'm currently finishing up my turf degree.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2002, 08:48:29 AM »
I grew up in Battle Creek (wading through boxtops and quarters on the way to school each morning due to our town's main employer).  Spent my summers in Stevensville and the Ludington/Pentwater area at various and sundry beach houses.  Now, every summer I visit my mom with my family in BC and make a trip to Saugatuck (my wife's favoriate city outside of Carmel-by-the-Sea and the town that she used to live in in Austria).
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2002, 09:51:59 AM »
Pat Hitt, exceptions to your descriptions of this side of the big Michigan puddle.  Point Beach State Park north of Two Rivers-Manitowoc, where there are several acres of very cool dunes, but also infested with planted coniferous species.  (Not that I ever looked at that State Park with any eye towards golf course potential  ::)

Also the area on the state line with Illinois near Winthrop Harbor has some cool rolling dune quality.  I haven't seen that in many years however, and may be over developed by now...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

A_Clay_Man

Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2002, 09:39:01 AM »
Patrick- How would you compare Dye's creation from an air-stripe to the Glenn club's ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick Hitt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2002, 02:30:19 PM »
Adam,
It is difficult to compare the two sites because the old Glenview site had 10 feet of elevation on the south end of the property and 0 on the runways. The Fazio team had to create the 20+ foot changes by moving dirt between holes and digging some ponds for material. Dye at Whistling Straits was able to stairstep his holes from the lake up to the clubhouse level. The separation between many of the holes at the Glen is created by the movement of the fairways between large mounding  or ponds. Expansive views are generally offered only at the tee boxes - except on the south and east corner of the property. The Straits course feels forced on the land only when the routing moves away from the lake on 5 (my least favorite), 9, and 18. Otherwise the elevation of the bluff is used to make the Straits look and play more naturally -that is untill you try to figure out where the 2000 bunkers got beamed in from.
I do wish that someone hadn't decided to plant a few few thousand trees at the Glen Club. I despize all the little evergreens.

RJ,
The wee bit of dune that is the Island Beach State Park is right next to the Zion nuclear plant. The 50 foot siren towers are a little unnerving - as is the asbestos contamination on the beach.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2002, 02:20:45 PM »
Patrick:

Nice analysis.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2002, 03:06:02 AM »
shivas:

I'm sure the reason it didn't work at Golf Club of Illinois is that
fescue needs to be starved.  Too much water, and the
bent takes over.

Perhaps too much water and a bad mixture
of bent/fescue there?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2002, 03:25:42 AM »
Paul,

I always thought that if you don't overwater bent then it will survive.  I always thought that is the way to get rid of Poa in your greens was to starve the green of water to the point that the bent is nearly dying then water again and the Poa should be gone.

The mistake that I have been told that many people do is that they start to water too early before the Poa dies off.

I thought that fescue likes water more than bent and that is why the bent in a bent/fescue green in Britain doesn't usually survive because of how wet Britain is.  The East of Scotland is mainly Poa and fescue greens...

Maybe I am wrong....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Whistling Straits' Bunkers
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2002, 04:55:39 AM »
Does anyone know the answer to this?

Brian and I have presented opposite viewpoints here.
Who's correct? ??? ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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