HJ Tweedie

[TEPaul]

It is very interesting to me that (why) The Golfer (the advertised arm of the USGA et al) of 1898 goes into Glen View, its creation and a complete description of the creation of the golf course in elaborate detail and it does not mention Tweedie at all. In the end it seems to give the credit for the course to the president of the club and its board of directors. WHAT was going on back then----what dynamic or opinion or whatever was going on back then that we may not understand or appreciate today?

[Tom MacWood]

TEP
You're the one with the working relationship with Glen View why don't you tell us what happened?

[TEPaul]

I am? I didn't know that. I'll defer to you. You're the best at speculation by a Chicago mile.

[Kirk Gill]

"WHAT was going on back then----what dynamic or opinion or whatever was going on back then that we may not understand or appreciate today?

I think this is a legitimate question, Tom M., that in some ways may cut to the heart of a lot of your arguments on this site - i.e. that certain individuals in an earlier era aren't being given enough credit for architectural work that they did. Let's say that Campbell at Myopia and Tweedie at Glen View are not generally being given their due credit. Why is that? Is it (or was it) some kind of cruel conspiracy? Were those giving credit to others or taking it for themselves lying bastards? Or was there a perception of the job being done by these historically "dissed" individuals at the time they were working that in some way minimized or marginalized their contributions?

[Tom MacWood]

Kirk
What is your question?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kirk (and TMac)

I think its a good question. I think in general, the original layouts were so crude and changed so often a bit later by Ross, and others who gained greater acclaim that they tended to get credited to them.  Now, I have no idea how much the original routings changed, and I am sure it varied, but before gca history was a big issue, but after the signature design (and the GA guys were signatures) there was just a tendency to ignore the original routers. 

In addition, most greens of the early era were probably not built by gcas, but by club pros, supers and members.  They may have naturally dismissed the routing (or changed it) and thought more of their own work.

We have seen that gca attribution didnt really matter as much to those guys until there were more professional gca's.  We tend to capsulize the old days, but remember we are talking courses that changed a lot from pre 1900 right up until 1929.

Add in numerous clubhouse fires, etc. and there is mass confusion, especially given our current mindset to attribute design to one guy or firm.

Basically, the concept of professional gca, and the concept of attribution have just evolved from the crude early days.  Trying to impose current values on them is difficult and trying to understand their take on things is even harder, because we cannot walk a mile in their shoes.

[Kirk Gill]

Kirk
What is your question?

Tom, I'll re-state the question. If you are correct in asserting that certain individuals (like Campbell or Tweedie) are not being given the credit that they deserve for their contributions to the architecture of certain courses, what is behind that historical lack of attribution?

Conspiracy?
The work of lying bastards?
A difference in mindset historically regarding how and why to make architectural attribution?

[Jud_T]

 

[Tom MacWood]

Kirk
What is your question?

Tom, I'll re-state the question. If you are correct in asserting that certain individuals (like Campbell or Tweedie) are not being given the credit that they deserve for their contributions to the architecture of certain courses, what is behind that historical lack of attribution?

Conspiracy?
The work of lying bastards?
A difference in mindset historically regarding how and why to make architectural attribution?

I think each situation is different. In Tweedie's case I think most Chicago clubs acknowledge his contribution to their particular course (and remarkably a lot of his courses have survived albeit in a redesigned form). However I don't think he has been given much credit or recognition from a golf architecture historical perspective for a few reasons. Most of work was done in the 1890s, the formative years of American golf architecture, which is understandably not considered the high point of the art. And unlike his contemporaries Macdonald, Whigham, Emmet, Bendelow, Watson, et al, he was not able to evolve and advance as golf architecture evolved and advanced due to the fact he died relatively young in 1904.

Campbell died young too in 1900. But in my opinion the attribution at Myopia, or lack of attribution, is just a case of poorly researched club history, which is the primary source of the attribution.

[Tom MacWood]

I found a couple of references to Tweedie laying out the course for Edgewater GC.

Aurora, IL
Belmont, IL
Edgewater, IL
Exmoor, IL
Glen View, IL
Hinsdale, IL
Midlothian, IL
Bryn Mawr, IL
Homewood, IL
Westwart Ho!, IL
Skokie, IL
Jacksonville, IL
LaGrange, IL
Onwentsia, IL
Park Ridge, IL
Quincy, IL
River Forest, IL
Rockford, IL
Ouilmette, Wilmette, IL
Washington Park, IL
Winona, Winona Lake, IL
Terre Haute, IN
Marshalltown, IA
Louisville, KY
Lake Harbor, MI
CC of Atlantic City, NJ
Hotel Victory, Put-in-Bay, OH
Fountain Springs, Waukesha, WI
Maple Bluff, Madison, WI

[Dan Moore]

That's a pretty impressive list for the era. 

Was anyone more prolific in the US during the period 1895 to 1904 than Tweedie?

Did from that time period lay-out three courses that could compare in quality to Glen View, Flossmoor (Homewood) and Midlothian? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I trust you mean Edgewater on the north side of Chicago?  If so, cool, since I remodeled that into a Chicago PD course years later (and told part of the story on a Chick Evans thread)  I recall walking the property while some of the old bunkers were still in shape, and may have some old photos of them somewhere in their weedy state.  From memory, I thought they looked pretty cool, slightly smaller than a modern bunker and sort of the typical horse and scoop push up variety, but when I have time, I would love to find those pix and look them over again.

I wonder if Dan Moore has the aerial of the original Edgewater that could be posted?

[Dan Moore]

Tweedie's Edgewater was located at Boadway and Devon and is nle.

For the aerial check this out.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,24436.0/

[Jeff_Brauer]

Dan,

Thanks for finding and reposting that.  The current course and apparently last Edgewater CC was at Pratt and Western, not far away from the original site, which was said to have extended from Devon up to Pratt.  Your aerial looks like the east west routing I recall from when that course relocated (in 1912 according to some records)

So, who designed the 1912 version?  By the way, looking at the aerial, I notice a haul road in from Pratt and what looks like a completely new green in with steep, Langfordesque banks, perhaps?  If you extend the east-west haul road over to the biggest tree in the right center of the photo, I would presume that is the tree where Chick stuck the golf balls in honor of his mother, given that is in about the right location as it was in 1978, just before his death.