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Jeff Spittel

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Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #125 on: December 02, 2010, 03:04:31 PM »
Why do these two descriptions have to be mutually exclusive? Any green that approaches the mystical "line" of demarcation can go from great fun to counfounding depending on the weather conditions/set up/strategy employed/skill of the player/etc. (See McIlroy, Rory 2010 Open Championship).

I've always subscribed to the theory that variety and challenge were two of the most appealing qualities of the great game of golf. I feel sorry for anyone who is dismissive of the greens at a place like Tot Hill (which clearly pose their own set of strategic challenges) based on aesthetics or preconceived design philosophies.

Next time you find yourself bemoaning a green as "crazy and stupid," I implore you to either relax and crack open an ice cold beer (God forbid you might even extract it from the cooler on a cart) while you remind yourself that you could be at work or hit the rest of your approach shots that day to tap in range.
Fare and be well now, let your life proceed by its own design.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2010, 03:39:25 PM »
Kevin L:

In the pic that's been posted -- someone has to explain to me what the theory is in having the bottom portion of the green. Frankly, all that's missing is the clown's mouth and the loop-to-loop !

Matt,

I'm not really sure what you mean - is your concern that there are essentially "two greens" on this hole?  If that’s your concern, the lower tier provides variety and a different challenge on the approach than the upper tier.

Or is your concern that the lower tier seems awfully small and difficult to hold.  If that’s the concern, I would argue than many “traditional” greens have tiers and plateaus that are effectively just as small (and usually not with a flip shot club in hand).

In general, I think the concept of the green is to provide two very-difficult-to-hit targets at the end of a relatively easy Par-5.  The approach shot taken in the photo is from approx. 70 yards, based on my recollection of the hole.

When the pin is low, the very narrow green provides a reward for taking risks in the shots leading up to your approach.  This hole has a ravine down the entire left side.  However, if you flirt with the left side on your second shot, you are rewarded with the full effect of having a “backstop” on your approach, as you would be hitting directly into the bank (this reduces the demand for precise distance control).  However, if you play away from the ravine to the right side of the hole, then the narrow characteristics of the green will reward you / punish you according to how much risk you take.  

Playing to the right side, if you lay back to 70-100 yards (as shown in the picture), the target is very small and the narrow width demands precise distance control.  Conversely, if you play right but hit it far enough to carry the small creek 30-40 yards short, then the narrow width of the green isn’t much of a factor on a short pitch.

On the upper deck, the challenge is completely different, as the elevated green provides an additional element to consider.  In that case, brute strength doesn’t necessarily reward you.  For example, being 20 yards short and right may be ideal to a lower pin, but may be a difficult “half shot” to an upper pin, especially if the pin is tucked on the upper right.  The additional size of the upper tier accommodates the longer required approach and increased challenge of an elevated shot.

In my mind, this green has a strategic purpose that fits very well with the challenges of the hole.  I don’t believe that “aesthetically shocking” and “strategic” are mutually exclusive.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2010, 09:39:32 PM »
Pat,

I don't know if you can define "crazy and stupid", but, like obscenity, you know it when you see it.

The line of demarcation may be when a green transitions from "fun" to "laborious."

Brian Cenci

Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #128 on: December 03, 2010, 06:59:47 AM »

What is the difference between the greens that Doak, Hanse, & C&C create and are generally accepted and those that are built by other modern firms that go too far?


The politically correct answer is that the contours on a Doak, Hanse and C&C course are either natural, look natural or blend in with the surrounding natural environment and the wild contours by the others do not.  Therefore, the greens are wild and fun rather than contrived and unrestrained. 

I will agree with you that it is often difficult to understand why a course like Kingsley Club is criticized for lack of restraint and courses by the architects you listed above are celebrated.

I agree with you completely on Kingsley....and to some extent Greywalls too and the criticism of its greens.  I find it sort of funny when people say Kingsley's greens are too extreme and 40 miles away is a course everyone praises that has some crazy greens (just a lot older), Crystal Downs. 

I think that some architects get carried away but I recently played Harbor Shores and really thought the greens were a breath of fresh air from a Nicklaus course (except for a few holes like #7).  Were they crazy, Yea!, but interesting, Yea to that one as well.  There were things I didn't like about the course but overall the greens weren't one of them.

Brian:

What didn't you like about the 7th Green?

The way the whole hole plays off the tee, then uphill to a green that just doesn't seem squared to the approach.  I don't mind the green as much if you were coming at the hole from straight over the pond, but you aren't. 

Matt_Ward

Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #129 on: December 03, 2010, 02:47:04 PM »
Kevin:

What is the approximate length of the average approach into the hole ?

Total length of the hole from the tips ?

When you say other holes you have seen have similar type designs -- I'd have to know the length of such holes and get a precise take on the amt of square footage that's available.


Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #130 on: December 04, 2010, 11:48:38 AM »
Kevin:

What is the approximate length of the average approach into the hole ?

Total length of the hole from the tips ?

The “Tips” are only 535 yards, and the entire hole plays downhill.  With a decent “tip-caliber” drive, you should be in range to have a go at the green in two.  When I played this spring, our group had 2nd shots ranging from 210-270 yards.  Even with modest length, your 3rd shot should be in the 70-80 yard range (and that distance is to the middle of the green, which is the “back” of the lower deck).  From that distance, the narrow green is a reasonable trade-off.  (Looking at the Yardage book, the lower deck looks to be approx. 21 yards deep (to crest of hill) and 10-12 yards wide).

While that narrow width is a bit much for a long iron or wood approach, that should only come into play if you’re trying to get home in two.  Also, Strantz provided plenty of room to land short & right which would leave you a fairly simple pitch (at which point, the width is irrelevant).

In the last paragraph you said “I'd have to know the length of such holes and get a precise take on the amt of square footage that's available.”  That was actually my first point when I entered this thread.  People dismissed the green as OTT simply from the picture without any consideration of the length of the hole and required approach (or angle options / bailouts provided, etc.). 

From my perspective, this green matches up well the rest of the demands of the hole and shouldn’t be so easily dismissed based on jarring aesthetics.  Now, if this green was at the end of a 420 yard Par 4, I’d join the parade of criticism.

Matt_Ward

Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2010, 01:55:20 PM »
Kevin:

How often is the pin placed in the very front ?

There are times when pins are placed in such "odd" positions because of the need to spread the amt of wear and tear out.

Appreciate the explanation -- I'd like to play the hole myself and judge from a firsthand experience. It still appears harsh but I acknowledge that my take is only from photos not from a personal play.

thanks ...

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #132 on: December 04, 2010, 10:44:24 PM »
Kevin:

How often is the pin placed in the very front ?

There are times when pins are placed in such "odd" positions because of the need to spread the amt of wear and tear out.

Appreciate the explanation -- I'd like to play the hole myself and judge from a firsthand experience. It still appears harsh but I acknowledge that my take is only from photos not from a personal play.

thanks ...
Regarding frequency, I think they use a standard “1,2,3” pin placement rotation, so I imagine the lower portion of the green is used 1/3 of the time.  I have only played Tot Hill twice, but the pin on this green was up top the first time, and below the second.  As a result, I was able to see the difference in the strategies / options presented from either spot.

I agree that the lower deck is difficult to get to, but the difficulty is justified considering the rest of the hole.  As I discussed on a number of Strantz-related threads, I think it is too easy to dismiss some of Strantz’ greens as “eye-candy” only, while the strategic considerations are often overlooked.  It’s not that I think Strantz hasn’t missed at times with some bad greens (RNK #18 jumps to mind), but I think this particular green works.

But I agree that it would be best for you to see it live & judge for yourself.

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2010, 09:55:57 AM »
Very interesting thread.  I think it is a mistake to attempt to qualify a difference, especially with some as finite a "a line".
As with many topics here on GCA, there is an attempt to gain an understanding of an element of design by examining just one parameter, to develop some sort of litmus test.  I think this thread is a good example of how one must bring a myrid of other parameters to bear on such a discussion. 

My take is that there are too many variables. Perhaps the biggest ones having nothing to do with the physical course but rather the psyche of the player.  What his baseline is, what his expectations are.  Perhaps that's why we aren't all married to the same women. We all have different tastes  Taking the analogy a step further, look at the divorce rate.  They all loved it (her) enough to think they wanted to spend the rest of time with them.  However, either taste changed or they discovered enough annoying things (some which may have been initially endearing) to cause a change in heart.

Trying to qualify or quantify an abstract concept is a fool's errand (leading to the "I know it when I see it" conclusion).  But, in the process, it helps identify elements of the concept which one person may have looked past. Distilling this thread (leaving out the Fan Club sidebar) it seems there are a few common denomenators like boldness of contours relative to green speed, alternate routes vs make or die, architects reputation in the hands of maintenance decisions/personnel,  a simpathetic (to the surrounding terrain) aesthetic, green size vs amount of contouring vs anticipated approach shot in, ability of the turf to allow for pitch and run vs an "aerial only" approach, etc.

Of these parameters, the one that GCA's don't have much control over is architects reputation in the hands of maintenance decisions/personnel.  Therefore, this, more than any other reason is why most GCA's tend to err on the side of less "wild,crazy,fun" because "stupid" is just around the corner.  Ironically, (was it Joe Dye?) who said "we (the Tour) are not trying to embarrass the best players in the world, but rather identify them"? Heavily contoured greens can add another dimension to the equation. As for the "you can get there from here" arguement, when I posed that early in my career to a long time PGA Tournement Director, his response was "if you are there but want to be here, obviously you have played the wrong shot.  Why should you get the same reward as one who hit the correct shot?"  Unfortunately, and here's the rub, recreational players don't have that degree of accuracy in their game and hence have a different baseline of expectations.  In his world he "expects" just being on the green enough of an accomplishment to be rewarded with a possible one putt.
Coasting is a downhill process

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The thin line between “wild and fun” to “crazy and stupid” greens?
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2010, 01:41:26 PM »
Tim,

Excellent summation of the thread. 

Like you stated, in most of these long discussions, I'm not necessarily thinking anyone is going to find a finite "answer" or an irrefutable conclusion.  Why I enjoy getting into discussions here is for the chance to be introduced to different considerations or points that I may never have even considered.

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