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Scott_Burroughs

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A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« on: February 19, 2002, 12:17:21 PM »
Up until this past weekend, I'd probably played around 30 courses in South Carolina, and only 3 of them weren't in the Myrtle Beach area.  I was finally able to "branch out" and see more the state has to offer.  I may have seen the best.

With apologies to Harbour Town, Long Cove, Haig Point, Secession, Chanticleer, and Musgrove Mill, none of which I've played, and The Dunes Club, which I have, I just might have been fortunate enough to play the 3 best courses in state in one dream weekend.  I played C&C's low-key Chechessee Creek and Raynor's Yeamans Hall on Saturday, and then the Ocean Course on Sunday.  All 3 have a write-up on this site.

Chechessee Creek

Low-key, C&C, and caddies.  What's not to like?  A decent amount was said on the Secession thread last week about Chechessee, and I'll add my $.02.  It's rather flat, as a low country course often is, and C&C moved very little dirt, and what little was moved had to have gone into the many push-up greens that fall off on all sides.  My only "beef" was that a number of the greens had a similar shape, deep and narrow and sloped back to front.  After playing the course once, I now know that landing short of the green is much preferred to being to the side of the greens (with steep fall-offs and bunkers) and pin high, so solid iron play is a must.

There are several holes with the "deception" bunkers up to 60 yards in front of the green.  I also had an iron into a par 3 land on the green and roll back into a bunker.  

After just reading Bob McCoy 2001 "O", it turns out he and I both had caddie Mike Cinsiger, former Brown U. hoops and golf coach.  What a "retired" life he has, a loop in the morning, then play a round in the afternoon.  He caddied for 3 years at Secession before here.  Another side note from the 2001 "O" is that fellow GCAers Ted Sturges and Joel Stewart played with Bob during his travels last year.

Yeamans Hall

Both Yeamans and Chechessee are similar in par (70) and yardage (~6600), but that's where the similarities end.  .  Yeamans has more elevation change and a few rolling holes.  Raynor's (this was my first Raynor experience) bunkering is different (hard to think of a different term).  Similar to the strip bunkers seen on the Chicago GC aerial, most of them (at least the fairway bunkers) have high mounds (can't really call them sod-walled) behind them that must be hit over if you land in them, giving them a definite half-stroke penalty.  The green-side bunkering is DEEP on several occasions.  

One is lucky enough to see the redan hole and rear bunker on the drive in, so it's a fun preview of what's to come.  Ken Cotner joined me at Yeamans (and beat me one-up, no thanks to my 6, count 'em 6, 3-jacks) and much fun was had by both of us.  Square-fronted greens certainly are a change of pace.  The course is a pleasant walk.  The Biarritz (#16) is of the type where the swale fronts the green, not bisects it.  The green itself has a "tube" running through the middle from front to back, bisecting it length-wise and giving it character and definite sections.  The onsite cottages look to be a pleasure to stay in when in front out of town.

The Ocean Course (Kiawah Island)

For whatever reason, I was prepared to be disappointed with TOC, since some of Dye's work is not appealing to me.  I was pleasantly surprised at the course.  Playing with resident resort expert Mike Vegis, I was shown a course that not only kicks your arse on any wayward shot, but has much strategic elements to it.  A few early holes have some awkwardness (lay-up tee shot on a par 5, #2 downwind that has big carry that must be stopped before going too far, and obtrusive finger of marsh of #4), and some of the greens seem severe just for the sake of being severe, but the bunkering was magnificent, much better than I was expecting.  Very natural-looking, blending in with many dunes, and giving the appearance of "blow-out" bunkers.

Mike showed where the new 18th green will be located (35 yards closer to the ocean) for the World Cup next year.  Even Mike made a comment that echoes my feelings, TOC is not a course you'd want to play every day, because you'd be so worn out every round from being beaten.  It's a thinking man's course, but any lapse in execution is paid for dearly.  Plus, you'd go broke losing so many balls.  Anyone with a handicap calculated solely from playing TOC is the person I want on my team.  My handicap would increase by at least 5 strokes with that as a home course.

Back to reality...

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Matt_Ward

Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2002, 01:24:34 PM »
Scott B:

Just a quick question -- what direction was the wind blowing when you played TOC? When you get a northern wind the finishing holes, starting from #14 through #18 is a real treat and absolute terror (unless you are nailing the ball!). I understand the 14th has been modified a bit to make it easier to stay near the green if you miss the target. Any truth to that?

I agree about handicap matters when playing TOC. I've played the course four times and one of those rounds was at maximum back. Played from over 7,600 yards TOC is just a beast. I really enjoyed the 13th from the tips!

I only hope the pros and those playing in the World Cup see the real course (about 7,200 yards) and not the pussy cat set-up that was used in the previous World Cup.

Scott -- can you provide a Doak rating number? I'd give TOC a solid 8. One last thought -- the courses missing from your SC portfolio are very good and you need to play them before making any definitive statement about SC golf. As a graduate of Univ. of S. Carolina I had the pleasure in playing nearly all of the first rate Palmetto State courses from my college days. The ones you are missing are well worth your time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2002, 02:00:36 PM »
We were down wind on No. 1 through No. 4, into the wind from No. 6 through No. 11.  The wind shifted toward the ocean on No. 12 so we had a stiff (15-20 mph and gusty) cross wind on the finishing holes.  It earned a 7 on the Doak Scale but that was in March of 1992.  Pete came in and made substantial changes in 1997 and will do so again this summer...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2002, 02:09:41 PM »
The wind was almost straight downwind for the first four holes then into the wind for 6-9.  By the time we hit the back it was diagonally into our face from the right, then when we hit 14-18, it was almost totally from the left.

I don't know what 14 was like previously.  Mike Vegis would know.  They had the blue tees back where the golds normally would be since it was downwind early in the day, though it had switched to mostly side wind, around 200 to the middle, back left pin placement.  I hit a good five iron to the middle of green with downhill putt.

13th from tips is something like 480 yards.

I agree that I can't really decide if these are the best in the state without playing the others, I was more or less posing it as a question, since all three get raves on this site.  TOC gets some mixed reviews, but I feel it get more positive reviews than Harbour Town does.  Long Cove and Haig Point aren't discussed as much, and Secession has only recently.  Chanticleer seems as if many here feel it's overrated.  Musgrove Mill seems to get an "underrated" label, considering the Palmer name (really Ed Seay).

I've never given a course a rating, regardless of scale, as I'm not a rater, not to mention that my resume of great courses is small to compared to most (which I consider very important when it comes to rating).  Without having played a decent number of great courses, I can't compare well.  

And about the others being well worth my time, this weekend was acomplete anomaly, with my wife and daughter out of town.  May not get the opportunity for a while.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt Kardash

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2002, 03:00:28 PM »
I just dont get how the ocean course is not ranked higher...and with every passing year the course just keeps getting that much better...but then again what do i know
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Mike Vegis @ Kiawah

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2002, 07:18:07 AM »
We've gotten an advanced look at GolfWeek's 2002 rankings and The Ocean Course is definately moving in the right direction  ;) ;) ;)!  After Pete Dye's tweaking of the course (scheduled for June 1 through September 15) and the Rater's Cup (with raters playing TOC on September 13th -- the first players on the course), we have high hopes for 2003 as well!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

RJ_Daley

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2002, 09:57:09 AM »
Nice to see KC still getting out on the GCA hustlers circuit ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Ken_Cotner

Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2002, 10:34:32 AM »
Dick,

My only hope was coughing as Scott putted.  That, and an ingenious head-high 2-iron which went THROUGH the enormous bunker guarding the left side of 17 green, coming to rest 20 feet away and allowing me to remain 1-up.  The typical pro or scratch amateur would have NEVER seen, much less attempted, such a creative and bold play.

These are also my only chances to play, as I am not recognized as a member at my home club!   ;)

KC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Ran Morrissett

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2002, 12:54:38 PM »
What a great trip - no doubt about it.

Your post reinforces something that has always puzzled me - why is the SC coastline so golf rich and the NC coastline so golf poor  ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2002, 01:05:00 PM »
That IS a good question.

Let's see the "best" of NC's coast might be among these  :P  Oyster Bay, Marsh Harbour, Tiger's Eye, River's Edge, Carolina National, Wilmington Municipal, Eagle Point (? I know nothing about it), Landfall's pair, Currituck Club, and Nags Head GL.  Ugh.

I haven't played Landfall or Wilmington Muni (and a couple others), but could a muni be NC coast's best?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ken_Cotner

Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2002, 01:55:23 PM »
Ran,

Is it as simple as population -- I'm guessing the NC coast (at least north of Wilmington) has a lot less inhabitants than SC?

Charleston with it's age and old money; then the attractiveness of the sea islands (Kiawah, Hilton Head, etc.)?

KC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Paul Richards

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2002, 04:33:59 PM »
Ran:

I'll pose it to you the opposite way - why are North Carolina's
inland courses so much better than South Carolina's?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

APBernstein

Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2002, 06:08:08 PM »
It may again be a question of population.

Inland South Carolina has very little population centers, excluding Columbia.  North Carolina has Charlotte, RDU, Winston-Salem.  And there is always the freak occurence that is Pinehurst.

Also, one could argue the inland terrain in North Carolina is much better than that of its southern neighbor.  The drive between Columbia and Charleston is one of very little elevation.  Conversely, the area around RDU has quite a bit of interesting elevation change.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2002, 01:47:48 PM »
Scott,

We will have to rectify one of those situations one of these days.  I would love to have you out to Musgrove Mill someday (and that goes for you too Ran, or anyone else).  You know next time you get a weekend hall pass we could put together a pretty good few days around Greenville as well.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Ran Morrissett

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2002, 02:20:24 PM »
Turboe,

How far is Musgrove Mills from a) Cuscowilla and b) Augusta? We are looking at re-scheduling the postponed fall GCA.com get-together at Cuscowilla for mid to late May and maybe we can combine the two?

Paul,

Just how good is inland North Carolina golf? Aren't the top 8-9 courses around greater Chicago better than what NC has in its entire state? Regardless, inland SC golf is a relative disappoint to its own excellent coastal offerings.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »

Daryl "Turboe" Boe

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2002, 07:14:03 PM »
Ran,

I am not on my laptop tonight that has my tripmaker program on it, so I dont have exactly, but Augusta is roughly 2 hrs from Musgrove Mill and Cuscowilla is roughly 3hours I would think.  Just not a real convenient way from Cuscowilla to Musgrove.

Keep me posted on what you are looking at.  I could certainly talk to the pro out there to see about what we could set up at Musgrove.  I dont know what days you would be thinking of, but let me know here or email me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Instagram: @thequestfor3000

"Time spent playing golf is not deducted from ones lifespan."

"We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm."

Scott_Burroughs

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Re: A Tour of South Carolina's 3 Best Courses?
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2002, 08:55:21 PM »
Daryl,
   I told Ran I wouldn't be able to make the Cuscowilla outing because I'll already be out of town (family vacation w/a side trip to play Pacific Dunes), but I might be coming down that way around Sept 21.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »