The private / public gap -- NJ, NY and PA

[GeoffreyC]

Just got my copy of the MET golfer in the mail last night and there is a very nice article on the public and semi-private courses in Northern and Northwestern New Jersey.

THey speak about courses from Royce Brook in the South to the Ballyowen's and Wild Turkey's in the North including Kelley Blake Moran's efforts at Hawk Pointe and Architects.

The Garden State clearly has it over the Empire State in public golf.

[Matt_Ward]

SPDB:

In answering you question I would offer this:

Pine Barrens follows the philosophy of "Less equals more." I commend Eric Bergstol in taking the bull by the horns and getting into the design business because he really cares and loves the game (however, you should see Eric's new course called Branton Woods in Hopewell Junction, NY / just south of Poukeepsie -- I played it last fall in its early infancy and it has a bit more complexity in the demands it presents to golfers throughout the 18 holes).

The issue with Pine Barrens is that sometimes the philosophy of "less equals more" can be "less equals less." The course is layed out without all the irregularly shaped nonsense you see at too many courses. The holes flow nicely, but until you get to the 14th hole it's just a series of one hole blending so closely into the next that you fail to have the blood stirred.

From the 14th hole on Pine Barrens comes alive. The holes are still "minimal," but possess a clear punch and the blood is indeed stirred. When you finish the 13th hole and turn the corner to the long par-3 14th your eyes will open big time!

Mike Cirba is quite correct about the long par-5 15th hole for its distinctive character and the 17th is an absolute tiger of a long par-4.

Royce Brook (West) follows the philosophy of Steve Smyers and that means from the courses of his that I have played is about an architect putting his hand squarely on the final result. Smyers, to his credit as both an architect and fine golfer / he played for the Univ of Florida team w Andy Bean and Gary Koch, understands what bunkers can be in the overall presentation of a golf course. Bunkers should not be cat traps that allow you to hit Texas wedges out of them. That NEVER happens in a Smyers bunker.

The issue with RB West is something you articulated -- how much is too much. I believe bunkers should have some generalized purpose -- the course is public and for the average player the sheer amount of sand can only add to the total length of time on the course.

I like the strategic elements that Smyers uses / he always makes you use the old noodle before pulling the trigger and there are plenty of holes at RB West where you must be very secure in your ability to carry bunkers. When the wind is blowing through this flat and boorish piece of property you will have to control your golf ball throughout the round.

If I had to sound with one course over the other it would be RB West by a narrow margin. Can either of the two crack the state's top five public courses? My answer would be doubtful given the quality of the competition and in the case of Smyers I believe a better effort with his work at Blue Heron Pines / East. In that particular course the use of his bunkering is much more strategic rather than overkill.

Hope this helps ...

[GeoffreyC]

SPDB-  can you scan and post the 4th hole at Royce Brook West to show what I think is a good option 2 fairway par 4? I don't have a scanner.

I too don't know if the course will ever be a "top 5" public in NJ but I like the course and I think it has a lot to offer.  I wish more public facilities like it get built.

[SPDB1]

Geoff - i'll post the 4th overview tomorrow, although you can pick it up off their website www.roycebrook.com. I do agree that Royce Brook is better than most new courses in jersey, and I really respect the fact that Smyers didn't throw mounding in to spice up a flat site.

It seems to often today, that architects, when presented with a flat and featureless site, will put mounding in to add some features of their own. My only regret is that sometimes on RB West, Smyers substituted these wild bunker fields for mounding.

I personally feel that Pine Barrens is FAR superior to RB West, though. I have said it here before, I think that the 12th hole is one of the better short par 3s in NJ with which I am familiar.

Matt, I feel that front side, while inferior to the back, still is not as bland as you make it out. Holes that stand out are:

1. which you play close to the waste bunker to give yourself the most open view of the green, or play away from the bunker only to have to negotiate a large greenside bunker.

4. A real bear of a par 4, that encourages run up shots to a narrow opened green.

9. A hole that could probably be more strategic, but still presents some interesting choices off the tee, as well as an interesting lay-up/go for it option.

more when i get to a faster connection.

[BillV]

Matt

Basketball game on Saturday, wife's birthday dinner on Sunday with my sister and crew.  Weekdays good now is what I meant!

We'll do it.

As for an unsolicited comment on Pine Barrens, with more interesting greens(It is a purely public course), it really could be something.  And it is where I met Mike Cirba for the first time, so it must truly be a shrine of some sort.

[BillV]

Matt

Tried to reach you today.  No luck as of........6:49 p.m.  

Anyway, Architect's has a little more than I remembered and I agree 18 is a disappointment.  Do you think it was meant to be a negative commnet on RTJ, Sr.?  The thought crossed my mind.

I think Architect's is probably close to a 6.  More later.

[Matt_Ward]

BillV:

Sorry I could not get back to you. This week is very bad for me and after Tuesday the weather will turn a bit frosty.

Can we maybe do something next week?

I will provide a more detailed answer to your question regarding Architect's Club sometime tomorrow.

Bill -- just a quick question how do you assess the Keystone State and public golf? Is it as bad as New York or do you think it fall somewhere else. I sense the Poconos, to name just one area and minus Great Bear, is just another version of Myrtle Beach Golf -- primarily fast food type and lacking depth.

What's your take on Pennsy public golf. Maybe Mike Cirba / Tom Paul can provide some detail because it's always been a curious subject to me and the gang I play with given the amount of times we've crossed the Delaware from Jersey.

Thanks and talk sooooon ...

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt,

I'm just moving this one up near the top to create a place holder to answer your questions about PA golf tomorrow.

[Matt_Ward]

BillV:

In response to your question about Architect's Club I just think the finale (400 yards from the tips) is really a letdown. I'm not advocating it had to be a long difficult closer (i.e. 440 yards plus), but the hole just fails to end the round in the manner you'd expect with all the good holes that come before it.

The obligatory bunkers in the fairway clearly mirror RTJ style and the green is soooo big you could have doubles at Wimbledon and still have plenty left over. Maybe the conceptual take on RTJ is too good because I have a tough time in finding a closing hole of his in the immediate area (maybe the original 18th at Metedeconk which is more a Roger Rulewich effort than Trent's) that really seals the deal to the round you've just played. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

I would hope that no trees are planted on #18 because this would just serve to clutter up the beautiful property. I like Architect's and am looking forward to seeing it again in it's second full season. Holes like #7 and #9, to name just two, are winners through and through. I also like the entire back nine so maybe there are other options for such a hole like #18.

On a different matter related to this thread I would be interested in seeing how you, Mike Cirba and even Tom Paul, and any others who may know, can explain why the Keystone State lacks quality public golf of the highest stature? You've got Wyncote and Hartefeld National in SE Pennsy and Quick Silver, Mystic Rock and I'll throw in Olde Stonewall in the Steel City area, and don't for get the absolutely blah offerings you get in the Poconos, Great Bear excepted, that is more akin to fast food golf / Myrtle Beach variety.

It always amazes me since the state has such good terrain. I played this year at Eagle Rock Resort in Hazelton and it is located on good property, but the layout is so totally mundane. Just two loops that are meant to max housing plots.

Any thoughts you can provide would be interesting. I think it's fair to say that Jersey public golf is miles ahead of Pennsy's and I might add even New York's for sheer depth. Fire away gentlemen.

[Craig Rokke]

If Jersey public golf is miles ahead of PA's, it's only gotten there in the last ten years. Look at all the good to very good public and resort courses that have opened up near
the shore during the decade. It seems like the tourism bureau has tried to market that region as a golf destination,
and they've done a good job. I bet 1/2 of NJ's top 20 publics are within a 1/2 hour radius of Atlantic City. And I think that
growth in tourist/resort golf is often a key to overall public golf quality within a state.

Looking at PA, there really are no tourist destinations
that put forth decent golf. The Poconos? No. The Amish country? No. (Although I think most visitors to that region
prefer a crummy outlet store to a good golf course. )Philadelphia? No. So for the most part, the public courses have been set up to cater to local play. And the majority of them were built during the 50's, 60's and 70's by local guys,
many of whom were relatively inexperienced.

I think another hindrance to quality public golf here in PA, especially in the Philadelphia region, is the existence of so many good private layouts. The demand for great public golf just hasn't been as pronounced as it may have been otherwise. I'd be surprised if there are more than 4 or 5 golden-age publics in the Golf Association of Philadelphia
which surely must have somewhere between 100-150 clubs.

At any rate, I think the climate for good public courses here in PA is warming. Some solid courses have been built or restored in the last 6-8 years, and I think that will continue.

[Chris Kane]

Paul



Those bunkers trying to replicate Royal Melbourne are a joke!  The bunkers at RM look natural - they blend into the surrounding landscape.  The ones in that picture looked forced+contrived.

[BillV]

I never weighed in my vote for Pennsylvania public golf.  At this time New Jersey has PA beat by quite a bit due to the new flurry of building at the hands of Eric Bergstal and others.
Twisted Dune may be the most thoughtful of the new bunch.

As for PA, compared to the private courses in the eastern half of the state with which I am more familiar, not too much to tell you to run and see.  Mildly disappointing to say the least.

[BillV]

Those bunkers trying to replicate Royal Melbourne are a joke!  The bunkers at RM look natural - they blend into the surrounding landscape.  The ones in that picture looked forced+contrived.

Chris, I've never been to Australia, I have no idea what RM bunkering looks like in person.


As I have said before, don't judge this course by one set of what are effectively  the equivalent of a waterfall or an old building in the middle of the 18th fairway.  Royce Brook West is a fine golf course and overall there are not too many bunkers.  The one decorative feature, probably requested by the owner/developer is anomalous.

[SPDB]

Bill -

I gotta jump in here and disagree with you, since i have been this site's biggest critic of Royce B. West. And not out of any personal animus, I love Smyers Old Memorial.

To write the bunker fields (that appear on more than one hole, I might add) off to an owner's wish, is a little presumptuous, unless you know differently.

I dare say, that many on this site would write off an entire course if a waterfall appeared in the middle of the 18th fairway. If that's what you are equating it to, then shouldn't Royce Brook suffer a similar indictment?

[BillV]

SPDB

Thought for the day

Compare and contrast Dye's waste areas and Smyers bunkering.

Is it a matter of difference of style, execution or personal preference? If you focus on a personal dislike for the bunkering numbers or style, you miss a darned good golf course.  (I am not so implying that you, personally, are). The green complexes at RBW are first rate.

[GeoffreyC]

Here is hole #4 at Royce Brook West, a good optional fairway hole.





I guess Bill and I are the biggest fans of RBW. I think it has a lot to like and its in the playability and not the eye candy.

[SPDB]

Geoff/BillV -

Maybe we should have a RBW Pro/Con 18 match:

Team Pro
Geoff
Bill

Team Con
Paul Turner
me

3.5 hours (pipe dream) of good golf and hard fought discussion.  

BTW - i don't think RB-W is that bad, my only quarrel is with the outlandish bunkering. I'll conce that there are some quality greensites.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig R:

Appreciate your response. Quick few points.

Public golf in Pennsy is really lacking -- ditto New York State. Whe you mention Jersey there is more golf being built in other areas of the state than just the immediate AC area. You do have courses going up in the central portion as well as the take off in counties such as Warren and Hunterdon which has been slow out of the box but seems ready to keep going.

You also have courses in the far northwest (Crystal Spring Golf & Resort), among others, that are developing. There is also golf plannned for the Meadowlands area (four new courses) and even golf in Bayonne (Hudson County) taking place probably by 04 or 05.

Pennsy has some fine land and you do have some metro areas with enough people to support good quality designs. Why, minus the few I mentioned, this has not happened is really a mystery to me. And, as I said before, the Poconos, with one or two exceptions, is really a bust. I will mention that the immediate Harrisburg area is decent with courses such as Dauphin Highlands, Iron Valley (good P.B. Dye design) and a few others near Hershey / Gettysburg areas.

New York State is also another questionmark because the same issues apply. The only really solid new course I've seen is Saratoga National / a Rulewich design that's very good. I also like The Links at Union Vale near Poughkeepsie and one to watch is Branton Woods in Hopewell Junction, a new Eric Bergstol design. Still, the Empire State has slim pickings given the pedigree of its private layouts.

Hard to believe that Jersey, given its small size, is still beyond its two closest neighbors in the public scene. Maybe there are other reasons but I have not heard any that really make sense. I guess the public market is not that good to support greens fees that go beyond $50 per round.

[SPDB]

Kelly Blake Moran (or Matt Ward):

What is the story with this Lower Salford, PA (NE of Philly) muni course that Kelly Blake Moran is designing?

I read about it recently, can't remember where.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

SPDB,

The site is northwest of Philly, near Skippack and Harleysville.  Construction begins summer 2002.  Probably open spring 2004. It is a part of a residential community, about 250 homes.  Course is par 71, 7150 from the back, 2800 from the junior tees...nice range, about a 1 acre practice tee, small clubhouse.  Land is rolling farmland, very nice.  Developer is well into the permitting process and should make it out by summer.  Water source is not resolved, but their are alternatives being pursued.  Developer gave the course to the Township.  Township so far is committed to providing a nice course; I am confidant it will be nice...management could be a major factor in how it is received by the public in the short term.  It should be a significant recreational asset for the township.  

[SPDB]

Kelly -
Good luck. Do the homes crowd the course?
I hope to get down to see Hawk Point this year, I hear great things.

[Kelly_Blake_Moran]

SPDB,

Strong opinions about homes on golf courses makes this a very subjective matter.  I believe the homes do not crowd the course.  10 holes have some home sites on one side only and golf holes on the other side, 3 holes have no home sites, 5 holes have home sites on both sides but well set back because of the nature of these specific areas.  two of these holes could almost have another hole within their corridor.

[BCrosby]

Geoff -

If No. 4 is typical of RBW, count me as pro.  Bunker shaping is a little over the top (how the heck do you maintain bunker borders like that for more than a year or two?), but what a wonderfully simple, strategic hole.

Bob