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David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2010, 01:27:55 PM »
Article on U.S. Am finalist David Chung's successful decision to switch to the long putter at age 20:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/09/15/SPEC1FBH49.DTL

Brad Wilbur

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2010, 01:44:51 PM »
I tried all of the above methods without success, until switching from right to left-handed.  The brain allows you to make the motion without the mental garbage that slight variations couldn't eliminate for me.  I even tried putting by bellying my wedge!

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2010, 02:20:33 PM »

Brad,

      I did that with my wedge also!! Also tried using  fairway metals/hybrids.

      So sad.   :'(

Thomas McQuillan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2010, 02:32:56 PM »
practise lots of puts from between 6 and 15 feet.if you get good at those you will begin to accept anything shorter as a mere formality and just step up and hit short ones without thinking.

Ah, Thomas, my boy...

Print out your post and put it away in a safe place.  Then, God forbid, if you ever get the yips you can pull it out and read it and wonder at the naivete of a yipless life.

I had the yips for about two years, I tried cross handed, langer- style, claw grip and just about everything else. It got to the point where I wouldn't play competitions and I would just pick up from inside six feet in practise. Overthinking was causing me to miss putts. Nowadays I just hit them firm and straight and if I miss, I miss. I'm certainly getting a lot better than I used to be and as a result of the practise have gotten really good at mid range putts and cut seven strokes off my handicap in the last year.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2010, 03:53:42 PM »
Quote
The only thing that has worked for me long-term is the two-thumb or wishbone grip, which is a little more radical version of a super stroke big grip.

AG, what is the 'two-thumb or wishbone' grip?

EDIT: Sorry, nevermind, found it.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 03:56:00 PM by Andy Hughes »
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

JSlonis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2010, 04:30:11 PM »
Archie,

I'll even offer free lessons to you for the long putter.  :) Another tip if you ever consider the long wand, make sure you find one with some good weight to it.  I find that way too many of the long models offered are too light.  I think a heavier weight head makes it a lot easier to feel the pendulum motion that you are looking for.  I've got 2 different putters that I've used pretty consistently and I've added a fair amount of weight to both to get them to feel how I want.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2010, 04:34:39 PM »
I have a buddy who is a near tour quality ball striker but is just a terrible putter. He's tried every grip in the book, long and short putters, etc...

The one thing he says helps him is the massive putting grip that KJ Choi has been known to use. Of course that's not enough though...he turns it so the flat part rests on his right hand. That way he says it takes all the wrist out of his stroke and he gets the feeling he is pushing the ball.

::) Just typing that made it feel like I missed a 3 footer. :)
H.P.S.

Jason Walker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2010, 05:23:54 PM »
I've been fighting the short game yips for five years.  One of those came out of nowhere stories, literally showed up on a buddies golf weekend and haven't totally left since.  Nearly made me quit the game, and they still come and go even today.  As my father in law says, the yips are like herpes, you never totally get rid of them.   One thing they did do was make me radically improve my putting and T-wedge play!  But all of this talk of the long putter made me share this story.  Over the years I've chipped and pitched one-handed, cross handed, claw-gripped, you name it I've tried it.  One of my friends does quite a bit of tinkering with clubs and built me a 52 degree belly wedge and a 52 degree long wedge and surprised me with them as a gift--that's how bad it got with me!   Scary thing is they've helped, and I still put one in the bag every now and then. 

Good luck to anyone who gets the yips, putting, chipping, driving, or any other.   It really is the worst feeling imaginable for anyone who loves golf.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2010, 05:36:38 PM »
I think most posters here are on the money but to add one thing to all the others (my opinion only) it would be the importance of a lot of practice with a good technique. 

"Most" mental problems in sport start with a poor technique.  Changing your technique to a long putter, differnt grip etc, shold help alleviate the problem innitially, but if you do not practice or if there are still technical problems in your new technique, then the yips can return. 

Good luck!
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David Camponi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2010, 06:27:18 PM »
The yips is a mental disorder.  You have to get over the mental hurdle and that can be done by changing technique or just getting over it.

I have seen an individual who could not make an 8 inch putt and that is not an exaggeration, you can't tell me it was technique as a 5 yr old could make 100/100 of those; what about Steve Sax or Chuck Knoblauch who couldn't throw the ball to first base or Dale Murphy who was switched to RF because he couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher from the catcher.  The list of the yips are long and plenty.

The individual I know got over them by going to the claw and it has worked; still not a good putter but is relatively consistent from inside 3 ft as to where before he could not finish most holes.

The chipping yips are tougher as it takes much more to hit the ball solidly; they pop up time to time and with myself I can tell if I am going to yip it before I even start my routine; then other times I have total confidence that I am going to hit a good chip.

Gib_Papazian

Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2010, 01:35:08 AM »
The baring of one's soul on this subject can either be cathartic or put the final layer of cement on the highway to Hell.

If you ask me, the hardest thing with the Yipperoos is finally admit you are so afflicted. I am uniquely qualified to discuss the subject having finally rid myself of the delusion I am still 35 years old with a deadly stroke and impossibly good short game.

That guy is long dead and there is no longer a point in crying over his cadaver. That impostor who took his place is more likely to skull a delicate chip through the clubhouse window (or stub the ball six inches) than leave it anywhere on the putting surface.

The impostor even looks like me in the mirror - except with gray hair - but any right-to-left putt under pressure inside four feet is an automatic whiff. Of course, there is already vomit on the putting surface before my backstroke, so it is no wonder the ball bounces around . . . . .

The temporary “cure” for me came about when a noted teacher in our area noticed I aimed my blade six inches to the right of the hole on every putt over 18 inches and compensated for it in my stroke.

The theory is that faulty alignment is the root cause of the yips because once your brain loses the ability to (re)square the putter, all the necessary compensations short-circuit your brain.

This worked beautifully to help reorient my impact alignment, but for every action with a hopeless head-case, there is an equal and opposite unintended consequence.

Normally, right-handed players have more difficulty with left-to-right sliders than a putt that “hooks.” For years, I was more comfortable nursing a fading ball into the hole than having to actually hit a putt to a spot that falls away to the left.

Naturally, after overcoming my whiskey-fingered, electric hands palsy, any putt moving to the right was automatically over-read and missed by -  no surprise – about six inches.

In the end, putting is 99% belief in your read and 1% execution. Billy Mayfair can serve as Exhibit A, along with the fact that Ben Crenshaw's knees move when he strokes the ball.

The worst part is that the magic reappears every so often to taunt me, just as providence chose to mercilessly torture Watson, Palmer, Lanny and nearly every other putter who once firmly directed the ball into the center of the hole.

I'm trying to recall anyone who learned to roll the rock cross-handed ever finding themselves in the private hell of contortive yiposity. This cack-handed observation may hold a clue to unravel the contradictory symbiotic relationship between two sides of the human brain.

Or it may be that until fairly recently, learning to putt cross-handed from the get-go was unheard of - and therefore nobody is old enough (yet) to have accumulated the necessary scar tissue to invite its onset.

I've tried The Claw, the Broom Handle, belly putter, cross-handed, back-handed, one-handed, left-handed, both ways with a Bulls Eye putter and even something resembling the old Bernhard Langer method until I realized my forearms are bigger than my hands.

I would stick the grip up my butt and stroke the ball by wiggling my ass if I thought it would work. The whole thing is hopeless because I've never met anyone who was permanently cured of this dreaded affliction. The yips are like herpes, except your underwear doesn't cover up an outbreak.

Mac O'Grady once spent the better part of an afternoon carefully explaining to me the neurology of how the yips begin in the fingers and gradually move their way up to the shoulder. Mayo Clinic stuff far above the head of a Cinematography Major. At one point I had a case of the Sergio's, but it was mostly a side-effect of some medicine I was taking.

During that time, the flat stick and dainty wedges remained bullet-proof. The yips did not come from the drugs baby, they grew out of the darkness of my tortured subconscious. I did it to myself. That is the worst part - when you KNOW that the only impediment standing in your way is the inability to control an involuntary twitch that comes out of nowhere. I can see how a Tour Pro could be driven to suicidal madness.

The strange thing is that I can beat anybody playing the game Operation - with either hand - but a 10-inch putt is an emotional trauma.  

Sam Snead was so desperate he went side-saddle, but the Slammer would have stuck the grip in his mouth on national television if he thought it would get the ball in the hole. The most telling shared experience is that every golfer with the yips can tell you the precise moment when the magic evaporated - and the shivers of fear over a meaningless stroke forever wrapped its icy fingers around your neck.

Elmer Sears Semi-Final Match, Del Rio Country Club, Brawley, California - 2003.  
« Last Edit: September 28, 2010, 01:41:00 AM by Gib Papazian »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2010, 06:42:11 AM »
The yips is a mental disorder.  You have to get over the mental hurdle and that can be done by changing technique or just getting over it.

I have seen an individual who could not make an 8 inch putt and that is not an exaggeration, you can't tell me it was technique as a 5 yr old could make 100/100 of those; what about Steve Sax or Chuck Knoblauch who couldn't throw the ball to first base or Dale Murphy who was switched to RF because he couldn't throw the ball back to the pitcher from the catcher.  The list of the yips are long and plenty.

The individual I know got over them by going to the claw and it has worked; still not a good putter but is relatively consistent from inside 3 ft as to where before he could not finish most holes.

The chipping yips are tougher as it takes much more to hit the ball solidly; they pop up time to time and with myself I can tell if I am going to yip it before I even start my routine; then other times I have total confidence that I am going to hit a good chip.

David,
The Mayo Clinic (and others, myself included) disagree with you about the yips being a mental disorder. 
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2010, 01:53:24 PM »
53-year old Randy Haag has been one of the top amateur golfers in Northern California for the better part of two decades (and the low amateur at the British Senior Open this year) by putting side saddle. He is how he does it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltsCtnGgNpc

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2010, 02:20:45 PM »
Unfortunately a "belly wedge" can't be longer than 48" under the rules, otherwise I'd suggest it for a guy in my office who can putt with anyone, but from 40-50 yards and in he is absolutely helpless.  At least once a round he will flirt with a TC Chen.   He is a very good player otherwise, but has tried everything with the short pitches/chips without success. 

It isn't a case either where he can't take his practice game to the course...he is a mess on the practice chipping green and the range also.

We look away when he is faced with a short shot.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #39 on: September 28, 2010, 09:36:15 PM »
 :D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D :D


I'm experimenting with the level of my shoulders with some success...made some real improvement since posting this awful thread. 
The more level , the better the initial direction , particularly from close range.  It's in keeping with Stan Utley's theory on inside to inside .   Bobby Locke, arguably the best putter ever , was known to hook them into the hole.

Gib , the pain is palpable from your writing and and can only wish you well .  Perhaps we can find a cure amongst the cognoscenti!

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2010, 12:51:46 PM »
Gib , the pain is palpable from your writing and and can only wish you well .  Perhaps we can find a cure amongst the cognoscenti!

More Hornitos?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Gib_Papazian

Re: BAD PUTTING New
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2010, 04:44:17 PM »
Pete,

Odd that you would mention that. Many years ago a guy named Aly Trompas - a former U.S. Junior champion amongst other titles - was known to sip brandy around the golf course as a way to calm his putting yips. I recall that at one point a tournament committee tried to ban his flask on the grounds that it was giving him some unspecified advantage.

I thought of Trompas yesterday while playing Stanford, where ironically he was a member of the golf team in the early 70's. It was around 100 degrees and after missing four birdie putts on the front (no longer than 15 feet), it seemed a good idea to quench my thirst with a pair of 16oz cold ones.

At once, and like magic, rock solid rolls that barely missing from 20 and 15 feet respectively. Two holes later I drilled a 5-iron leaving a four footer straight up the hill, and marched onto the green to collect my birdie.

Four spastic stabs later (the last two cross-handed) I was forced to reevaluate my new-found putting elixir and walked off the green with my tail in my butt crack.

I've never heard of anyone resorting to using a bong on the golf course, but desperate times demand desperate measures.

Would that count as my 15th club?

    
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 12:17:26 AM by Gib Papazian »

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2010, 05:06:53 PM »
...It was around 100 degrees and after missing four birdie putts on the front no longer than 15 feet, it seemed a good idea to quench my thirst with a pair of 16oz cold ones.

Just out of curiosity, how many of these would you expect to make? Even the pros probably wouldn't be burying more than 1 in 4 from 15 feet. And frankly, when estimating misses, most seem to underestimate the distance of the putt, while in estimating made putts...

I wonder how much is simply unrealistic expectations. I've never had anything remotely approaching a yip, but maybe it's because I've never been in any sort of real competitive situation. I did choke pretty badly the first time I had a shot at breaking 90, so maybe it's just a matter of getting in the right type of situation often enough.

Good luck, everyone.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2010, 05:16:09 PM »
Gib, I remember watching Trompas play in the SF City one year.  I remember he was drinking beer, not something harder, but maybe my memory is foggy.  He used to teach on Bob Boldt's staff at Boundary Oak, but that staff has turned over since Boldt lost the contract a few years ago.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Gib_Papazian

Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2010, 05:24:51 PM »
George,

Let's put it this way: If the holes were the size of a manhole cover I would not have come anywhere close. This is not about unrealistic expectations. It is about a self-inflicted neurological brain seizure by a hopeless head case so completely lost that I could not make a four foot putt if you dug a trench - and the hole was the Grand Canyon.

-g   

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2010, 05:35:36 PM »
Sorry to read that, Gib, you have my sympathies.

My own expectations are definitely unrealistic: I expect to make everything inside of 6 feet, I'm genuinely surprised and disappointed if I don't. But lag putting from 30+ is just guessing for me.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2010, 07:27:11 PM »
I wasn't kidding when I mentioned that a belt of scotch works for me. It's kind of a frightening piece of knowledge, for down that road leads genuine alcoholism, or at least an overwhelming suspicion that all facets of life might work a little better with, as some call it, aiming fluid.

But, damn, I stroke it like David Toms when I've had a drink or two.
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Scott Coan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2010, 09:55:48 PM »
I sympathize with all the fellow yippers out there and just want to state categorically that there is a world of difference between bad putting and the yips.  Bad putting can be corrected, just like a bad hook or slice.  The yips is something completely different and debilitating.  It is like an electrical impulse that starts in the brain, goes straight down the inner forearms, and results in bomb-like explosion in the hands.

Until you have stood over a 1 foot put, having taken your time and got yourself square and in position, taken the practice strokes, told yourself that you are a good putter and that you WILL make this put, and then completely missed the hole then you can perhaps delve into the terror that is the yips.

Like all the other sufferers I tried the claw when it came into vogue a few years back and that worked nicely for a while until the yips slowly began to erode into that stroke.   Then I tried left hand low and same thing, worked great for a while.  Belly putter, same thing.  Even went back to the conventional grip this past season to great success only to crash and burn a few weeks back.

In the same match that I missed the 1 foot put I subsequently hit a 300 yard drive and then a dart 7 iron to 6 feet on one of the toughest par 4‘s on the planet.  Most every player would be thinking “allrighty, once I bin this put I’ll have played the perfect hole”.  Instead my thoughts were how can I possibly get this put to within 6 inches so I don’t 3-put?  I felt sick instead of being pumped and my fellow competitors felt sorry for me.

After that round I was ready to give up the game.  I literally grew up on a golf course and have been playing for over 40 years but if every single put is a nightmare then it becomes a psychosis.

So I did what I should have done about 10 years ago and that was buy a broomstick.  I was always against the concept and fought the temptation as I considered it to be a bit like cheating.  The old, it’s not a golf stroke thing.  I specifically remember Bernhard Langer pulling out his 50-inch putter on the tee of a par 3 to measure back 2 club lengths.  I was disgusted.   

Well, I have been converted and I encourage all the yippers out there to give it a try.  Even when I hit what I think to be a terrible put it still rolls on down to about 2 feet and is always right on the line I want.  Putting is fun again!  Sure, I have missed the odd short one, but that is just bad putting.

Hallelujah to the broomstick!!!

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BAD PUTTING New
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2010, 11:51:51 PM »

desperate times demand desperate measures.

    

Gib,
 
We'd love to have you play in the next 5th Major.

Eric
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 11:53:44 PM by Eric Smith »

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