Southern Pines GC - Imaging a Treeless Look

[Chris Buie]

Hi guys, didn't want to start another thread while still babbling about Overhills - but this is Ran's idea.  He was talking about a how much better it would look without trees impeding the view - not to mention bringing the wind into play.  So as I said this is his idea.  I just roughed up some imagery.  
The idea is to start a discussion.  And so, what do you think of this?

View from 1st tee - 17 green bottom left:



View from 5th green - 9th green middle left - 11th green immediately over the water on far right:



Another view from 5th green - toward the 7th green in the distance:



From the 8th green toward the 11th green - the 13th fairway high in the background:



From the 11th green toward the 5th green - 9th green just to the right of that - beginning of 6th fairway on left:



Looking from the crest of the 13th fairway toward 10 and 14:



From the 16th tee toward 18th green:

[Carl Johnson]

Just a week ago I played Southern Pines for the first time and was impressed.  So I am interested in this topic.  Unfortunately, the way the photos are coming through on my computer (or maybe it's my eyes/glasses), I can't make out enough to offer a comment.

[Adam Clayman]

Carl, You should know better than most how openness is important to golf courses.

Ran is indeed correct and is likely correct for a great many courses.

[Carl Johnson]

Carl, You should know better than most how openness is important to golf courses.

Ran is indeed correct and is likely correct for a great many courses.

I agree that openness is important.  I absolutely love it.  I'd still like to see better graphics.  Maybe I am expecting too much.  Maybe I am missing something here.  Maybe the images are too rough for me.  Who knows?

[Peter Pallotta]

I can see from the images (thanks Chris) what Ran means and wants to see. In one sense, I understand the appeal.  But the end of that road is not something I want to imagine.  I want the course (no, the place) called Southern Pines to look different than the course, the place, called NGLA.  Why? Because long before any one of us got here (to North America), and long before we (on gca.com) all became so precious about our game of golf and its fields of play, that place in North Carolina looked different than that place on the coast of Long Island.  

Peter      

[Adam Clayman]

Yes Peter, the sense of place is paramount. I find that by uncovering these places, by removing the obstructing trees (not necc all of them), the sense is uncovered.

Sleepy Hollow illustrates this in spades, now.

[Peter Pallotta]

I can't argue with you, Adam - you have played more courses in more places for more years than I ever will.  But -- that is a subtle distinction you're making, and it would be hard to 'manifest' it successfully, and I don't know who I would trust to see it through.

Peter   

[Dean DiBerardino]

Chris:

Were you able to play the golf course before the tree clearing they did in the past eight years or so?  The area of #1, #2 tee, #17 approach and #18 were much more tree lined than today.  I agree that the vistas across the golf course and exposure of the terrain would be great.  I would also imagine that keeping the trees away would be tough as well.  I played SP last month and, after teeing off on #13, ventured around back of the tee and looked at the 5th green and 6th hole of the closed third nine and was amazed at how quickly the trees and vegetation had grown up around the 6th green.

When I worked at Pinehurst, we found some pictures at the archives to hang in a collage in the hallway at the Main Club (They may still be there).  One of the pictures we thought was of a Pinehurst course and the image ended up being taken from the 16th tee of Mid Pines when the course was in its infancy.  The neat thing about the picture was that you could see all the way across the golf course up to the cottages next to the 10th hole on Midland Road.  I wish I had the image on file.  Below is a recent image of the 16th at Mid Pines which makes it hard to believe….

[Chris Buie]

It would be nice to have better imagery but this is the best I can do for now without spending an enormous amount of time on it.  It is sufficient enough to give you an idea of what it would look like, I think.  

I don't think that Ran pictured all the trees removed.  

Mr. Pallotta makes an interesting point about a sense of place.  I'm not sure how to answer the question.  I think probably you could remove a great amount of trees and still retain what make S. Pines S. Pines.  

Were you able to play the golf course before the tree clearing they did in the past eight years or so? - Dean DiBerardino

Yes, I grew up mainly about wedge distance from the 1st fairway.  It was actually nature rather than some considered decision that saw to the tree clearing.  The guys running the place at the time couldn't organize a ham sandwich much less concieve of and execute advanced course improvements.  There was a tornado in 2003 which actually started between the 1st and 18th fairways.  It pulled down a lot of the trees on the 17th and 18th fairways before going over part of the town and finishing around the middle of Midland Rd.  

You can see the tornado thinned out area on the right in this photo from the 17th tee.  Before that event it was quite thick and was pretty much a jail as far as playability.  Now you can see the 18th fairway and the 1st green.  And if you hit it in that area you can still have a go at the green attempting to curve the ball around the trees that remain.  


There is absolutely no question that it would be a better course all around with the trees greatly thinned out.  The holes around the lake in particular would then feature some relatively dramatic views.  I suppose it's instructive that Ross chose to play around rather than over the lake.

[PCCraig]

Chris:

It's interesting to imagine Southern Pines or any golf course in the Pinehurst area really without the ever-present Pines and their needles. I know this is just an exercise, but I would be curious to see if the trees were cut down, would the course get less tourist play? I feel many golfers travel there to get the "Pinehurst" experience, and unfortunatley at times, the "look" includes pine trees.

Also, I will be curious to see if other courses follow the resort and what they are doing to #2. I wonder if any other courses in the area will attempt to follow the scrubby "look" as a response to the changes and if traveling golfer's expectations of the area's courses change.   

[Charlie Goerges]

As long as this thread is about "look" and not about agronomics or strategy then I can't say I agree with Ran on this one. I think Peter hit the nail on the head so I won't belabor that point.

This isn't apples to apples with what Adam is talking about, but personal experience tells me that that clearing trees and opening up views does not always accomplish a good outcome. For example, several years ago my family logged off a number of acres on their property. The land is forest and is surrounded by more forest. There were some nice views opened up for sure. But I was struck by one example of a hill that ran down a seemingly long way clear to the property line. When I was a kid my dad explained to me where our property ended by saying the line was "way down there at the bottom of that hill" and pointing at the dense forest. It looked like a long way down there and for all intents and purposes it was a long way down there. Now that the hill has been cleared I can tell you exactly how far it is down there. It's a 3/4 wedge shot. The mystery is gone and opening up the view didn't make the place seem bigger and it didn't make the place feel intimate. It just feels small.

This isn't to say that there is never a reason to clear things out or open up views. Just that when considering this kind of thing, the law of unintended consequences is in full effect.

[Jason Topp]

The pleasure of walking in pine shade is pretty unique.  The cooler temperature, the smell and the sense of peace are reasons I enjoy such areas. 

[Chris Buie]

Pat, I'm sure you are right that most tourists have a certain look in mind.  That look (and playability) does get modified over time though, I think.  The lush, wall-to-wall green carpet appearance hasn't always been in vogue.  As you say, it will be extremely interesting to see how people respond to what's going on with #2. 

Hi Charlie, where does it say the thread is only about the look?  It is about any issue at all relating to tree removal.  Your point about the possible loss of intimacy and mystery is something to consider though.  I'm glad you brought it up because I do think those are important elements.  I hadn't ever thought of those topics in the context of the size of a course though. 

It seems the main concern of some is that the a dramatic tree reduction would cause the place to lose the characteristics which make it distinctly the Southern Pines they have come to know.  It would be significantly different.  It would be more like the course Ross knew, would it not? 
I wouldn't think all the trees would need to be removed. I don't think he was suggesting a 'bald' course.  However, I still do think that opening it up a great deal would make it better all around.
Anyway, thanks to everybody for your input.  They are all interesting points.

[jeffwarne]

Hi guys, didn't want to start another thread while still babbling about Overhills - but this is Ran's idea.  He was talking about a how much better it would look without trees impeding the view - not to mention bringing the wind into play.  So as I said this is his idea.  I just roughed up some imagery.  
The idea is to start a discussion.  And so, what do you think of this?

View from 1st tee - 17 green bottom left:



View from 5th green - 9th green middle left - 11th green immediately over the water on far right:



Another view from 5th green - toward the 7th green in the distance:



From the 8th green toward the 11th green - the 13th fairway high in the background:



From the 11th green toward the 5th green - 9th green just to the right of that - beginning of 6th fairway on left:



Looking from the crest of the 13th fairway toward 10 and 14:



From the 16th tee toward 18th green:

It's called Southern PINES

[Chris Buie]

Hi Jeff.  Here is a photo of Pinehurst for your consideration:

[jeffwarne]

Hi Jeff.  Here is a photo of Pinehurst for your consideration:

Courses like that would sell like hotcakes now

No doubt the architect and owners of the time said :this place will be great once a few trees grow up

I prefer the pictures you show of 17 at SP

[Chris Buie]

Jeff, what do you think of the right side of the 17th fairway?  The trees there were hugely thinned out by the tornado.  Do you think there are enough trees there to retain the identity of SPGC?  Would you prefer the view of the 18th fairway and 1st green be blocked?  Do you think it would play better with a forest there?

[jeffwarne]

Jeff, what do you think of the right side of the 17th fairway?  The trees there were hugely thinned out by the tornado.  Do you think there are enough trees there to retain the identity of SPGC?  Would you prefer the view of the 18th fairway and 1st green be blocked?  Do you think it would play better with a forest there?

Chris,
I have no dog in this fight.
I was admiring the thinning of the trees on #17 from a picture you posted.
a few more tornados would be great-
years ago nature took care of thinning with a cycle of forset fires-now the best courses manage their forests-most don't due to either expense,tree hugging,or other factors.

I think we agree that many older courses need periodic thinning.
I happen to think the original picture of Pinehurst looks like a course most would not want to play-not just because of the lack of mature vegetation, but also because of the geometric mounding and square sand greens (all of which I think are pretty cool...if you throw me a mature pine or two into the mix

I was joking in my original post (Southern Pines)