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Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2010, 11:42:19 PM »
Hopefully Whitten referenced Mac's fine thread for this story...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42260.msg902264/

 :)

Andy Shulman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2010, 11:51:02 PM »
Getting back to Whitten's rant and the Tarantino-Lynch question, does anyone out there consider Mike Strantz (his Royal New Kent made Whitten's list) to be the David Lynch of modern architects?  Or, is he just another producer of - to quote Whitten - "gussied-up reproductions" of classic courses?

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2010, 11:51:53 PM »
Wonder why Hazeltine National, another big RTJ course (a la Bellerive, etc.) got the nod in '62 over Desert Forest GC?  Isn't considered the first desert-style course ever built?

excellent point Wayne
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #28 on: October 08, 2010, 12:17:44 AM »
I completely agree. The early, notable, desert golf courses were instrumental in the growth of Phoenix, Palm Springs, etc.

And Hazeltine was heavily reworked after the 1970 Us Open which was won by Tony Jacklin. I believe the signature #16 was a completely different hole then.

Currently the course is closed for green rebuilding and significant regrassing.  They are getting ready for the 2016 Ryder Cup!

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #29 on: October 08, 2010, 12:30:31 AM »
I would simply ask for a well presented argument that Erin Hills belongs on such a list. Pardon my candor but that is self promotion on the scale only a couple other people claiming design credit could match.

To his credit it is noted as a footnote. Wonder what Joe Average Avid Golfer thinks of this or if it even registers?

John Moore II

Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2010, 01:55:05 AM »
Getting back to Whitten's rant and the Tarantino-Lynch question, does anyone out there consider Mike Strantz (his Royal New Kent made Whitten's list) to be the David Lynch of modern architects?  Or, is he just another producer of - to quote Whitten - "gussied-up reproductions" of classic courses?
Well another thought about Mike Strantz, is it possible he might be comparable to someone like James Cameron? Cameron makes high quality original works (Terminator, Titanic, The Abyss and so forth) and the one 'remake' he did (Avatar, if you think it was a remake of Dances with Wolves) turned out spectacular, even if only from an artistic and not acting standpoint. Compare this to Strantz where he has done a small volume of high quality original work and his remake may be remembered as his best work. Just a thought.

As far as the rant, I agree with every word.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2010, 02:13:13 AM »
Its a list, and for the most part, a useless list.  If the guy is ging to go into such detail about which courses per decade he needs to add a ton more verbage to explain his choices.  As the list is now I don't have a clue why the courses he picked out are meaningful to the topic.  Essentially, this is a half baked article that any decent editor with a curious nose would have tossed back at him and said DETAILS.  

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2010, 09:30:04 AM »
Did anyone read his "Critics Rant"?

If I read it correctly, I am in almost total disagreement with him.  He criticizes architects for not bringing anything new to the table design-wise.  But I believe that nothing new is needed as golf is best when it embraces time tested principles. 

What is the quote in Scotlands Gift?  Time doesn't bring forth new truths, rather it reveals timeless truths (or at least something like that).  I tihnk that is the ticket with golf.



Mac:

I read that as well and actually tend to agree with him. Developing new strategies would be something I hope more GCA's would do, instead of using their own personal "templates." I'm not speaking about all GCA's, but there are many examples. How many times are we supposed to play the same Fazio long par 4 with a big, but shallow green with a bunker 50 yards short of the green? Or Pete Dye's 430 yard par-4 that wraps around a lake cape style with a pot bunker short and opposite the water side of the green? :)
H.P.S.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2010, 10:57:13 AM »
I agree that Strantz is the most original of ther 1990 era gca's.  I have heard Ron Whitten compare his work to special effect thriller action movies, while the rest of us are generally doing remakes of "its a wonderful life."  I gather there will be fans of both, but is remaking the classics the highest form of art?  Granted, special effects just for effects sake isn't likely to garner any Oscars either.

I think RTJ's early efforts at using construction technology to build big lakes, like at the Dunes in MB, SC are underrated as to their impact.  His tenth big course, maybe is overrated.

I once went into an interview figuring that everyone would say to follow classic principles and specifically said "Screw classic principles."  I went on to talk about how golfers need visual stimulation, a better mouse trap, etc.  I wish I could tell you that it netted me the job, but someone bid about $35K for the fee when it was really worth 5-10X that.  But they did consider me a while longer just because my approach was the only one to sound different.  And, it got them thinking. 

What does it say when 9 of 10 gca's recommend flouide toothpaste.....ehm, following the classic style, rather than a unique new style?  TD and CC say they follow the classics, and do, but I would wager than a lot of their success comes from the jagged edged bunkers that looked so different from the rest.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ron Whitten's Game Changers: Most Important Courses by Decade
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2010, 11:14:06 AM »
Dismal River is an important course to study. More about how NOT to enter into it and even more interesting is how they've turned it around. I agree with those who feel slighted without justifications. Clearly lists dominate the impactful nature of magazines. Anyone who recalls RW short stint on here will remember he had no interest in defending his positions.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle