New Zealand project

« **on:** March 10, 2002, 06:45:23 AM »

Bruce Hepner and I have just arrived back from New Zealand, complete with signed contract to design a new 18-hole course on a sheep station at Cape Kidnappers, near Napier. Our client is Julian Robertson, who developed Kauri Cliffs.

We finished the routing of the course while we were there, and will start construction before the end of the year, maybe even as early as July. (Unlike Greg Ramsay's project in Tasmania, funding is well in place for this one.)

The site is right on Hawkes Bay, but it's not sand dunes -- the cliffs down to the water are 300 to 500 feet high, with unbelievable views. (The routing returns to the cliffs four times, at the 5th, 9th, 12th-13th and 15th holes.) However, the contour of the interior land is excellent for golf. There are a bunch of holes which have no need for fairway bunkers, although as Alister MacKenzie famously said, we'll probably build a few, just to give players even greater thrills.

We found New Zealand to be among the most hospitable places in the world -- the people and the weather -- and we are truly excited by the opportunity to work on this property.

« **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2002, 08:49:38 AM »

Excellent news as New Zealand deserves some relief from Bob Charles, architect.

Generally cliff top settings lack good interior land for golf - it's either flat on top or a broad slope, neither of which works too well. What makes this land different? Does the site remind you of any other one that you've seen?

Is the course going to be part of a high end resort? If all goes well, and given that it's a great site, will it open in 2004?

My Kiwi wife informs me that the area has its own micro-climate (a little like Dornoch I suppose) and that the area enjoys more temperate weather than much of the North Island.

Several of NZ's finest vineyards are close by so be careful - the troops will never want to leave there

« **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2002, 12:28:11 PM »

300-500 ft cliffs above the water, Yikes. Don't let those operators anywhere near the grape juice when shaping those tees!

Actually, I do have a question. How would you describe any permitting or zoning issues compared to US typical process on such coastal highlands? Do things tend to go smoothly over there?

« **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2002, 01:08:25 PM »

Tom,

I'm very happy for you that this project is moving along. It sounds like I'll need to combine a visit to Tasmania with a visit to this site.

Best of luck!

« **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2002, 05:18:54 PM »

Congratulations Tom, I hope you might be able to put some pics up of the site at some time?

No doubt you'll do a great job there, and another top track in this part of the world can only strengthen the appeal for golfers in the US and Europe to make the trek.

And with Julian Robertson's money behind the project, you wont have to put up with any of the frustrating delays that I have experienced!

All the best

Greg Ramsay
www.barnbougledunes.com

« **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2002, 10:33:17 PM »

Tom,

Did you go and watch any Rugby or cricket matches?

« **Reply #6 on:** March 11, 2002, 03:32:44 AM »

Good work Tom, the excitement in your prose comes through loud and clear.

Cheers

« **Reply #7 on:** March 11, 2002, 03:49:58 AM »

Tom:

I'm just trying to visualize those cliffs you mentioned relatively speaking. 300-500ft high!? 500 ft would be approximately twice the height of some of the cliffs at Old Head, would they not? And Old Head was a vertigo inducing experience if you got too near those cliffs at least it was to me. How near these ones are you getting and how would the cliffs compare to Old Head--which you did a routing on, correct? Is this coast line on the New Zealand property basically a straight line like PD? And what's the natural vegetation on the site?

« **Reply #8 on:** March 11, 2002, 04:37:23 AM »

I found these pictures of the area on the web..I don't know if this is close to what the land Tom is dealing with looks like..Obviously, these are cliff views only..

http://www.usouthal.edu/geography/haywick/images/NZ/napier5.html

http://www.usouthal.edu/geography/haywick/images/NZ/napier7.html

« **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2002, 05:17:13 AM »

NAF:

Thanks for the photos! Would you just look at that first photo? One of the most natural tee sites I've ever seen and certainly enough room on the far rock to get a 2-4sf green on! How cool would that be?? Look at the fantastic natural positions of the rocks in between for strategic options to go for the green in two if you didn't want to go at in on the tee shot!

This hole will make #16 Cypress look like a junkyard dog!! Go for it Tom, don't start by whimping out like Alister MacKenzie did at Cypress before someone like Marion Hollins shows you it can be done!

« **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2002, 06:01:05 AM »

Tom Paul,

I was thinking more of a George Thomas Swinging Bridge to get you to that green site..but then again just think of Dr. Mac's original plans for the 18th at CP!

« **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2002, 06:53:08 AM »

Naffer:

Doak is a student of the history of architecture and also a student of MacKenzie so you're right a swinging rope bridge would probably be the practical way to go. Doak would certainly see the bridge designed for Cypress's #18 back tee in GeoffShac's book would be way too rigid for that particular site with water, wind and weather considerations!

Do you think it would be asking too much of him to design a teeny little punchbowl green on that pinnacle because he will have to think of trajectory and stuff and the ability of the ball to come to a halt on a 2-4sf green!

How about selling "Raiders of the Lost Ark" fedoras at the pro shop, do you think that would be a nice touch?

« **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2002, 07:11:49 AM »

Tom P,

This is New Zealand, home of the maoris..Perhaps we can get a troop of some native warriors to do the Haka for you before you tee off.. Never seen the haka? Just watch the All Blacks (The Kiwi national team) before a rugby match..

In all seriousness, I just posted to show what the surrounding Cape Kidnappers coast looks like. It is also home to the world's largest Gannet bird population but maybe I was being a dodo for putting those pics up. The Kauri Cliffs surrounding area with the Bay of Islands looks quite similar as well. What is interesting to me is that Julian Robertson (a major domo in my biz) has bought extensive property in New Zealand. I think he described it (the North Island) as Monterey Bay 60 years ago in terms of its potential.

« **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2002, 08:38:36 AM »

I see you have the course maintenance facility in place already

http://www.hb.co.nz/gallery/sheep.html

I think I see the property where the golf course is planned.

http://www.usouthal.edu/geography/haywick/images/NZ/napier4.html

« **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2002, 02:15:02 PM »

Lou:

All kidding aside some of those photos and the land look really extraordinary!

« **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2002, 04:33:00 PM »

Godammit TD, first Oregon and now New Zealand, we gotta find you a site on Cape Cod. Eastward Ho! has had all the glory for too long around here.

Congratulations, the site looks spectacular. And I'm just serving notice to my fellow GCAers that I want dispensation to comment on photographs on this course, because I'm sure there is a weight limit on flights to New Zealand and I ain't gonna fly air freight with the sheep and goats for that long a flight!

« **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2002, 04:57:25 PM »

Mark,

Is Napier almost an equidistant drive from Wellington and Auckland? About four hours a pop? Is there an airport in Napier with decent connections from Auckland?

By the way, how long a drive is it from PB to near this course?

Mark, this is the most promising NZ golf news (at least architecture wise) since your man was roaming your links 55 years ago - you must be delighted!

Cheers,

« **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2002, 05:43:09 PM »

Interested to know who Julian Robertson is.
Will this be a private course or a resort and will people be able to get on it without too much trouble?

« **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2002, 06:19:04 PM »

American Julian Robertson is a 68 year old Wall Street Billionaire/golf nut and the developer of Kauri Cliffs in Matauri Bay, NZ - an upscale resort and golf course by David Harmon of Orlando.

http://www.kauricliffs.com

« **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2002, 08:48:01 PM »

MarkH:

Are you sure about that rock? It looks like one enormous, possibly petrified Great White Shark fin to me! Perhaps that's why it's been there for a while. If I come out that way though, you check for me and I'll take your word for it, OK?

Some of the neatest looking landform I've ever seen though!

« **Reply #20 on:** March 12, 2002, 01:55:33 PM »

I hope the project goes well and by that I mean I hope people get to play the course.

I recently toured New Zealand and fell in love with the place. I met many Kiwi golfers and not one of them had played Kauri Cliffs. Even more revealing was that not one of them had even KNEW of anyone who had played the course. They just won't pay $250.00 NZ to play a course regardless of how nice it is and most of those I met were hoping the concept would fail, taken over by local interests, then reopened with reasonable green fees that the public could handle. I fear that with the same ownership group behind this project, a similar fate might befall it.

Classy, high falutin' resorts are not typical of New Zealand. It's not the type of country that attracts high rollers and the average visitor is going there because it is an economical place to visit. They're not likely to be lured to Kauri Cliffs or to this development either if it is operated in the same fashion. I hope not! :-/

« **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2002, 02:11:46 PM »

You guys are amazing in your ability to call up pictures. When I get mine back from the slide processor I'll see if there's anything worth posting. Unfortunately, the scale of the place is pretty much impossible to capture on film.

Our most jaw-dropping hole will be a par-3 along the coastline, which drops from 140 meters at the tee to 110 meters at the green -- still 350 feet above sea level! The rest of the cliff faces are mostly too steep to work to the edge, but the routing will go out onto fingers of land with clear views down and out to Hawke Bay.

You can't see the "Shark's Tooth" and the gannet colony from the golf course site on the plateau, but you will see it as big as life from the proposed lodge site.

For those lamenting high green fees, I believe these will be a bit more reasonable than Kauri Cliffs, because there are enough people in Napier and Hastings to generate some local play. Kauri Cliffs DOES have a rate for Kiwis, but it's still pretty high, since quite a few of the Kiwis who go there are renting a helicopter to fly up from Auckland, and can afford the green fee regardless. Napier has regular air service from Auckland, very similar in scheduling to the Detroit-Traverse City route, and luckily cheaper.

The New Zealand economy is pretty small, and those who lament Mr. Robertson's prices should remember that if he wasn't paying for the whole thing out of pocket, a project like this would never happen.

« **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2002, 07:32:33 PM »

Tom,
The only course with cliffs in the range of several hundred feet I've played is Stonehaven in Scotland.They build your confidence with rails made of 1 by 2's at least 30 inches high.In any event cliffs of that height really add to the beauty and excitement.Great project!!!
Yancey

« **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2002, 07:46:23 PM »

Tom Doak,

It sounds like an exciting opportunity for worldwide recognition

Good luck with the project, and post pictures as you progress through construction if you can.

News:

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Ran Morrissett

RJ_Daley

Tim_Weiman

Greg Ramsay

Brian Phillips

Paul Daley

TEPaul

NAF

TEPaul

NAFFER

TEPaul

NAF

RJ_Daley

TEPaul

Ed_Baker

Ran Morrissett

Danny Goss

Mark_Huxford

TEPaul

Rick

Tom Doak

Yancey_Beamer

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