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JC Jones

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MacKenzie Greens?
« on: July 12, 2010, 07:51:46 AM »
I had always associated the good doctor with wild greens but on a recent thread, Scott Warren said the greens at Alwoodley were tame.  That got me thinking, is there a "MacKenzie Green" style?  If you had to describe his greens, would you call them "wild"?
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2010, 08:07:09 AM »
I just played Palmetto in Aiken, SC and although I had heard about Mackenzie greens, I still wasn't prepped for them.  They were interestingly placed, lots of undulations, a few false fronts, and they were kept pretty hard and fast.  I thought they were right up there with the best greens I've ever seen. 

But I wouldn't call them wild.  I'd call Tobacco Road's greens wild.  I'd call Palmetto's great!
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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2010, 08:36:58 AM »
JC,

At Alwoodley I recall 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 12, 13, 16 and 18 as quite flat with subtle break, generally a constant slope.

8-11 and 17 were more steep, but still more of a constant slope and direction across the green

3 (par 5) has a pronounced tier from high right to low left, the LHS tier hidden from view until 50 or 60 short, but each tier within itself quite sedate.

14 (200y+ par 3) has a killer false front and the some subtle undulation, and

15 was a wild sucker: false front, back sections runs the ball off, most of the green lurches left but the tiny sliver on the right deflects you that way.

They certainly wouldn't be among the more wild greens I have seen in GB&I, but Alwoodley was right at the start of his career, so I suppose you might expect that he wasn't designing greens as "risky" as what pictures suggest to me are on the ground at Pasa and ANGC.

2nd green


7th green


16th green (starring Mike Whitaker)
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David_Elvins

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Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2010, 08:40:01 AM »
Surely Alwoodly is not a good course to use as an example of MacKenzie's greens? 
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Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2010, 08:54:21 AM »
Alwoodley came up by name in a list of "wild greens" and I simply clarified that they weren't a wild set. It certainly wasn't a case of suggesting they are representative of MacKenzie's complete portfolio.
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Joe Hancock

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Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2010, 12:46:41 PM »
JC,

With the good fortune of seeing a few MacKenzies w/ Mike D. as my guide, I noticed that there was a tilted plane type green on the Good Doc's courses. I don't know that it's a hard and fast rule that he included such greens along with the more prototypical "wild" greens, but it was an observation I had and Mike somewhat confirmed through his more expanded travels and knowledge.

Tom D. and Mike De. would be great commentators here, but I know at least one of them is traveling today.

Joe

(Come down and play the Mines this week...I'm finally home)
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" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

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JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2010, 01:56:57 PM »
So you expect me to wait around all summer for you and then when you finally decide to include me, you expect me to drive to where YOU are?  Well no ma'am.  I have too much pride.
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I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2010, 02:23:59 PM »
I've got to get on the road myself, headed to the CC of Detroit.

I don't have time to go into a lot of details now.  I do think there are some things about MacKenzie's greens (SOME of them) that are unique.  However, in general, I think it's a disservice to think you can make large generalizations about any great architect's work.  Didn't Jim Furyk just do this last week regarding "Donald Ross greens"?  Can't really say I blame him, since so many golf writers over the years have written so much about crowned Donald Ross greens.

It's the same for Dr. MacKenzie.  He was probably more likely than anyone in his day to build two-tiered or three-tiered greens, but they certainly weren't all in that mold, and they weren't all the same.
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James Boon

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Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2010, 06:28:33 AM »
Quote from: JC Jones on July 12, 2010, 07:51:46 AM
I had always associated the good doctor with wild greens but on a recent thread, Scott Warren said the greens at Alwoodley were tame.  That got me thinking, is there a "MacKenzie Green" style?  If you had to describe his greens, would you call them "wild"?

JC,

I grew up with several older golfers I knew referring to any two tiered green as a MacKenzie Green. Whether this was something specific to the Midlands or the UK as a whole I don't know?

Cheers,

James
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Paul_Turner

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Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2010, 07:02:06 AM »
James

I'm pretty sure that the term is much more prevalent in the Midlands/North of England i.e. where he worked mostly.  You don't really hear the term down south and or in Scotland or Ireland.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2010, 07:03:44 AM by Paul_Turner »
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Niall C

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Re: MacKenzie Greens?
« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2010, 02:39:09 PM »
Paul

I think its true that you more often hear the term in the North of England but you do hear up in Scotland as well. Dunfermline has several and on one of them I'm sure the difference between one teir level and the other must have been 5 or 6 feet. Marty Bonnar I'm sure would be able to confirm if my memory is playing tricks.

I believe MacKenzie told the story about him getting the blame for all greens like that.

Niall
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