Eden Hole and Knoll/Redan questions

[TEPaul]

Bill McB and TomD:


I'm trying to follow what you are saying about various holes particularly say the 16th at NGLA having some kind of architectural DNA from maybe the 17th at Lundin Links. But Tom D seems to say the tee shots perhaps are the only similarities and Bill McB seems to agree.

But the 16th at NGLA has always been and been named "Punchbowl." Perhaps it is pretty obvious and I've just missed it over the years but where do you think the DNA for Macdonald's 16th green came from abroad or otherwise? Was it ever mentioned in print at any time? I've never thought of it before as to whether the green of NGLA's 16th was considered by most to be one of CBM's original concepts or whether it was considered he may've gotten the idea for it from somewhere else before NGLA without ever actually mentioning where he came up with the real "punchbowl" green concept.

On the other hand, I'm aware, or I think I am, that there must have been numerous greens extant abroad in the "Dark Ages" (loosely 1850 to maybe the mid 1890s) that used bowl shaped greens for apparently water retention for the turf before any man-made irrigation was available on golf courses.

So what about CBM's "punchbowl" green and its concept at NGLA? Was it his original idea or do you think he saw it somewhere previously? I do know that even if NGLA's 16th green-end is a very large punchbowl of sorts on basically three sides very little of which is actual greenspace (or ever was?) it is very open on one side----the right---which is actually a most interesting approach option for what is such a totally blind approach shot from anywhere and everywhere off any kind of tee shot.

[Cliff Hamm]

I've always thought that it would be great to have a page dedicated to the template holes. Put it with Courses by Country, Feature Interview, etc. Use examples of originals, classics, great replicas, close but not quite, etc.  Powers that be?

[Mac Plumart]

Cliff...

this may not be exactly what you are looking for, but it has some of what you mentioned...

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/index.htm

However, I am with you concerning getting something like this on GCA.com

[Kevin Pallier]

On an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).

Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?

Jay

I was of a similar belief too - re: a steep dropoff over the back to make the recovery even more difficult ?

From what I've seen I believe Fishers Island is better than GCGC and NGLA's

[Cliff Hamm]

Cliff...

this may not be exactly what you are looking for, but it has some of what you mentioned...

http://members.tripod.com/silverleaf_design/index.htm

However, I am with you concerning getting something like this on GCA.com

That's very close to what I think would be a great addition.  Pictures could be of much better quality and also capture the entire hole.  Would be perhaps fun to set up categories as I mentioned.  Original, classics, modern replicas, wannabees...whatever.  Could have votes to determine what holes belonged where.  Anyway, just a thought....

[Bill_McBride]

On an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).

Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?

Jay

I was of a similar belief too - re: a steep dropoff over the back to make the recovery even more difficult ?

From what I've seen I believe Fishers Island is better than GCGC and NGLA's

I was very underwhelmed by the Edens I've played in the US.  None have the combination of slick, steep slopes from back to front and left to right as the original at the Old Course.   The original is still the greatest by far.

It's the combination of those steep slopes with the deep Strath and Hill bunkers that make the hole at St Andrews so difficult.

[Kevin Pallier]

I agree Bill with regards to the class of the original.

I should have been clearer in my last post that I was refering to the Q: posed by Jay re: US Eden's. It will be interesting as to how Old Macdonald's version is received ?

[Scott Macpherson]

On an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).

Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?

Jay,

'Eden' was the old name for the 7th hole on TOC. It goes back to 1821. In the late 1800's it started becoming known at High (In). I think that name (High- In) was adopted more permanently just after the turn of the 20th Century. I wonder if those modeling holes on it now call it 'High'? Or should they?

scott

s


scott

[Bill Brightly]

Mac,

I'd say the placement of the bunkers definitely mirrors the original Eden, as does a relatively safe bailout short-right.

Does the green tilt significantly from back to front? Looks pretty flat in the picture.

Also, the mounding behind seems very wrong for an Eden.

[Simon Holt]

Bill McB and TomD:


I'm trying to follow what you are saying about various holes particularly say the 16th at NGLA having some kind of architectural DNA from maybe the 17th at Lundin Links. But Tom D seems to say the tee shots perhaps are the only similarities and Bill McB seems to agree.

But the 16th at NGLA has always been and been named "Punchbowl." Perhaps it is pretty obvious and I've just missed it over the years but where do you think the DNA for Macdonald's 16th green came from abroad or otherwise? Was it ever mentioned in print at any time? I've never thought of it before as to whether the green of NGLA's 16th was considered by most to be one of CBM's original concepts or whether it was considered he may've gotten the idea for it from somewhere else before NGLA without ever actually mentioning where he came up with the real "punchbowl" green concept.


On the other hand, I'm aware, or I think I am, that there must have been numerous greens extant abroad in the "Dark Ages" (loosely 1850 to maybe the mid 1890s) that used bowl shaped greens for apparently water retention for the turf before any man-made irrigation was available on golf courses.

So what about CBM's "punchbowl" green and its concept at NGLA? Was it his original idea or do you think he saw it somewhere previously? I do know that even if NGLA's 16th green-end is a very large punchbowl of sorts on basically three sides very little of which is actual greenspace (or ever was?) it is very open on one side----the right---which is actually a most interesting approach option for what is such a totally blind approach shot from anywhere and everywhere off any kind of tee shot.

TEPaul;

I have never seen NGLA but I know the 9th hole at Hoylake is called Punchbowl and its a great hole in MHO.  Total shot in the dark so sorry if its no help.  There is also a hole called Alps at Hoylake but its a par 3 so obviously no relation to Prestwick!!!

[Mac Plumart]

Bill...

The green does slope pretty significantly from back to front.  It does look flat-ish in the picture, I don't know why it came out that way.  Any putts back down that hill are FAST!!!

[Simon Holt]

On an Eden hole, shouldn't there be something behind the green to emulate the banks of the river Eden (don't go over the back on an Eden hole!).

Is 18 at GCGC the best Eden Hole in America?

Jay,

'Eden' was the old name for the 7th hole on TOC. It goes back to 1821. In the late 1800's it started becoming known at High (In). I think that name (High- In) was adopted more permanently just after the turn of the 20th Century. I wonder if those modeling holes on it now call it 'High'? Or should they?

scott

s


scott

Scott

I remember when I just starting playing at TOC and started my interest in GCA.  I didnt have a clue what people were talking about when they talked about this 'Eden' hole.  I always knew it as 'High-In'!!  It was only a couple of years ago in California that I was having a conversation and the penny dropped.

I also grew up calling Hill bunker 'Bobby Jones' as that what all the caddies call it after he tore the card up there.

[jkinney]

I also agree with Bill McBride that TOC's Eden is the best. With the green backing up on the Eden Estuary, the infinity backdrop is fearsome indeed from the tee. National's has become more interesting since the expansion of its green back and right, which has afforded some gnarly new hole placements. But the proportions of TOC Eden seem absolutely perfect to me. I look forward to Tom's version in Bandon.

[TEPaul]

"TEPaul;
I have never seen NGLA but I know the 9th hole at Hoylake is called Punchbowl and its a great hole in MHO.  Total shot in the dark so sorry if its no help.  There is also a hole called Alps at Hoylake but its a par 3 so obviously no relation to Prestwick!!!"


Simon Holt:

That's very interesting because Hoylake was the course that Macdonald played most of his golf in what he called his "Dark Age" between the time he left St Andrews as a student (1872) where and when he'd fallen in love with golf and the early 1890s when golf first began to appear in America (according to Macdonald as a result of what was called the "Columbia Exposition" (World Fair) in Chicago in 1893). The only time he could play in that 17-20 year "Dark Age" was in GB when he went there in those years for business and Hoylake was the club he belonged to over there.

[Jim Thompson]

Mac, I've got a good one for you. I was visiting Jim Thompson's Angels Crossing in Kalamazoo. After putting out on the first hole Jim turns to me and says, "How edenesque". I looked around at the beautiful surroundings, complete with an all natural low lying marsh/pond filled with long reeds and plants of all types and figured he was talking about the Garden of Eden, and I completely agreed. He must've sensed my confusion because he said "no no the green". Heck, I wouldn't know. Redans and Knolls are a bit easier to identify, IMO.

In your defense, we were having a hell of a lot of fun!

[Mark Pearce]

Like Simon the punchbowl green par 4 that immediately springs to mind is Hoylake, where the green is hidden from the fairway (unless you have driven it 300 yards+ and it is a really good hole (and not one that gets a lot of attention).  I have never thought of 17 at Lundin as being anything like a punchbowl but I understand what Tom is saying about the drive and that isn't a feature of the Hoylake hole.