notions of genius

[Bill_Coggins]

Will,

You asked why there is genius in golf design:

If the body of work for an individual is considered seminal study for any beginner, would you not consider that work atleast good?

If the body of work for an individual is tops in its field during his life-time and continues to be considered of the best long after he has passed,  is this not noteworthy?

If the body of work for an individual is considered so good, that even an experienced person in the field desires to emulate even part of that body of work, is this not exceptional?

If the body of work for an individual is so good that others attempt to duplicate the work, but fail to do so.  Is this not an indicator that the person maybe unusually talented?

Mac stands head and shoulders above almost all golf course designers.  Of the rest, he stands shoulder to shoulder.

As for genius, you seem stuck on Einstien.  If he was the pinnacle of genius, what musical masterpiece did he create that changed the nature of musical history?  How about painting or sculpture?  Let's try chemistry?  How about architecture?  Of FLW, what musical piece did he create?  What fundametal law of physics did he establish?  What great architecture did Mozart create?

I would proposed that a genius is relative to his/her field of expertise, not relative to OTHER genius.

In golf course design a handful of designers can be called genius.  I use this term since on a grand scale they created art and used science to create a challenging functional product that could be used by the young and old, small and large, skilled and unskilled, for many, many years.  Herein lay the genius of his work.  And their work is a living textbook for future designers.

The simplicity of construction does not deny genius, for Michelangelo's David only required that he chip away all that did not look like David.

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

You answered 3 out of 8, that ain't bad. Of course the answer on #8 was personal taste. Which is probably why your hypothesis makes no sense, it is not based on logic, simply personal taste. Thats fine, appreciation for art normally boils down to personal taste. Plus its not like you claimed you were genius.  

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom MacW

So who was it that taught you how to do BOLD text?  Probably Naccarato-san.  He'll pay for that at Barona.  Don't fight "wlhammer." You are in yet another losing battle.  But, if you have nothing better to do........

[TEPaul]

It appears that Willhammer doesn't think there ever has been a genius in golf architecture. I guess the next question would be does he think there ever will be a genius in golf architecture or even if there ever could be one in golf architecture?

It seems Willhammer feels (as does Rich Goodale, possibly) that golf architecture is not the kind of endeavor that would be able to produce a genius! That architecture is not worthy enough to tell if someone is a genius or not. Too simple an endeavor, in other words, just not really all that much to it!

Geo. Thomas may have been a genius but it appears he didn't feel that golf architecture had what it takes to evidence his genius so he went back to something that could--breeding roses!

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom P

When I think of genius, I think of what I must have been like to any one of Newton's "heirs" when they finally "got" what Einstein was trying to say, ie. F=MA was just a simplistic expression of the greater and far more complex reality of E=Mc2.  I think of Shakespeare, who took a nascent language and a crude art form (drama) and created eternal truths.  I think of Elvis, who melded several forms of music and a unique personality and talent into something special.

Great golf courses are great walks in the park.  They ain't (yet!) genius.

[Rick Shefchik]

Rich,

Now you've stepped in it. Comparing the Good Dr. unfavorably to the King? Here?

Talk about getting some people all shook up.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I do understand why you say that "Great golf courses are great walks in the park. They ain't (yet) genius."

But the time may come soon when you finally "get" what Mackenzie, Hunter, Behr (and some of the others) were trying to say, ie. the F=MA of golf architecture (which is where you may now be) was just a simplistic expression of the greater and far more complex reality of the E=Mc2 of golf architecture (which you will hopefully come to understand).

Or that Mackenzie, MacDonald, Colt et al who as Shakespeare did with language, took a nascent pastime and a crude art form (golf architecture) and created beautiful artistic expressions and eternal principles of which an everlasting game....

Or William Flynn, who like Elvis, melded several styles of golf architecture and a unique personality and talent into something special.....

ELVIS? Are you joking?? I loved the King but he was a dumb country boy with a great voice! He wasn't a genius!

You want to make reference and analogies to musical genius talk to me about Screamin" Jay Hawkins, at least! Now there was a musical genius! There wasn't anybody ever born or who ever will be born who could write and sing a song like "I put a spell on you" like Screamin" Jay could! Pure genius! At least I think it was genius, but maybe it was just really loud!

[Mike_Young]

Willhammer writes:
"The main distinction between building/home architect and golf designer that could elevate the building architect to genius is that there is more room for expression in building architecture. More materials to choose from, a wider range of scales to work with, greater engineering knowledge and concerns to consider, and a more public forum for judgement. This statement does not conflict with my earlier arguement that the reason a golf designer cannot achieve "genius status" because there are too many other factors out of his control. The factors out of the golf designers control are more weighted to the success, beauty, and enjoyment of a golf course, than who in particular happens to design said golf course. This is not true with building construction.

Additionally, the engineering done on a golf course is rather simple and can be done quite easily. The plant material selections are limited by climate and function.

Webster says: Genius:  > b : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity c : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high intelligence quotient
synonym

There is academic genius, mathmatical genius,  creative genius, musical genius, mechanical genius and even golf design genius.

The statement that Willhammer makes above regarding Vertical construction architecture to Golf architecture contains no logic IMHO.  Every element that he mentions for vertical construction is contained in Golf architecture.  The genius in golf architecture is in making the average person that sees his work not realize that these elements are present.  The best are where the public thinks the architect had to do nothing because of the sight.

Without trying to sound obnoxious; I think that is what is missed on this site the most is the unseen that goes into each and every project and is only known to the owner, builder and architect.
Mike

[TEPaul]

Mike Young:

I like what you say about what's missing on this website is understanding the "unseen". That's not obnoxious at all. I would love to hear stuff like that but have no idea never having worked on a course or even followed the construction that closely.

Can you talk about some of that, even if it seems mundane?

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Rich
Do you like the bold lettering, I actually figured it out on my own. WH made so many contradictory and conflicting statements that I thought my questions might get lost and that he wouldn't address them. It didn't work, he didn't address them anyway. Oh well.

By the way I've never claimed any golf architect was a genius, but I don't see a good reason why they couldn't be. But if you say they ain't, thats good enough for me. Like they say, it takes one know one.

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom MacW

To paraphrase my fellow 60's radicals:

"Make arguments, not rhetoric."

Peace and Love

Rich

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Rich
That's clever. I would have loved to make an argument if only I could've figured out WH's argument. Ansel Adam's is not a genius because he presonally is not fond of his work, hard to argue with that. I'm not crazy about the theory of relativity either. This whole topic gives me headache, I figure I'm not smart enough to figure out who is and isn't a genius.

We need to get back to a subject a non-genius can get into - golf architecture!

[Mike_Young]

Tom Paul,

I don't mean to bore people with the things that are not present in the creative part of golf architecture and the things of which I speak are issues and specifications such as the following:
1 bedding an irrigation tranch with sand so as not to let small pebbles or rock rub against the pipe over the years causing blowouts.
2. double washing gravel to keep from having greens construction problems
3. slope of subsurface on tees...
4. placement of bury pits etc so as to cause no future problems
5. depth of slicing when sprigging fairways and greens
6. whether to cross above or below irrigation with drainage pipe
7. placement of heads around greens to keep from entering into play

and many more which I think are just as technical as vertical construction.
This is probably another thread.
Mike

[Don_Mahaffey]

Mike Young,
You sound like a super in architect's clothing, and I mean that as a compliment. I love good golf course architecture, I love even more good golf course architecture that is maintainable. Depth of sprigging?? Hey, the contractor sprays 'em on or scratches them in and it's no longer his problem. I took over a golf course that was less then a year old and had to sprig 15 acres my first summer, because the answer to poor sprigging was a heavy overseed.
I've got a tee that has sunk twice, what's that you say about bury pits?
Placement of heads around greens, great point, this is another area where some field knowledge is worth all the CAD skills in the world.
Attention to the little things may not get you a lot of headlines or top 100 status, but if the super can concentrate on maintaining the course instead of finishing it, everyone is better off, especially your client.

[Mike_Young]

Don,
I guess I, like most others have found out these things the hard way.  When you have a normal budget and a client that expects you to stay within the budget you cannot get by with some of the things that the bigger budgets can "repair" and still make it.  Plus the smaller architect can't afford the mistakes of the "name". Not to say that "names are always making mistakes.  But you will not pick-up on these types of items with 10 site visits.
Mike

[Slag_Bandoon]

Back in my days of scoolin' I was classified as a "Submarine Genius"...... I was always below C level.  

  Using the word as a verb and not a noun is more appropriate in my opinion.  Being a genius is not conducive to further understanding of what was sculpted, but acts of genius are noteworthy for a portfolio and discussion.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich, To let you know, Elvis was really good at making hits of other peoples music. Just ask Carl Perkins..... (Unfortunately he died last year.)

[Slag_Bandoon]

One more notion...  Some have been geniuses at self promotion.  Hardly cause for praise or emulation.  

   lyrics...(Paraphrased)...

It's a tryout for a golf course that millions watch each week.
Following the fame and fortunes of contestants as they speak.
Answerable to everyone; responsible to all: publicly disected - brain cells spattered on the walls
   of encyclopedic knowledge.
It may be barbaric but it's fun.
As the clock ticks away a lifetime,
Hold your head up to the gun
 of a million cathode ray tubes aimed at your tiny skull.
May you find sweet inspiration, may your memory not be dull.
May you rise to dizzy success.
May your wit be quick and strong.
May you constantly amaze us.
May your answers not be wrong.
May your head be on your shoulders. May your tongue be in your cheek.
And most of all we pray that you may...come back next week.

Be a whizz kid.

IA

[Richard_Goodale]

Tommy

You suffer from an excess of youth.  At your age, I assume that Barry Manilow was/is The King.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Rich, Nope, it was Keith Emerson.

[Richard_Goodale]

Tommy

Esoteric, but acceptable.

All other things being equal, I'll vote for your contemporary Slag's hero, IA.  For whatever reasons, "Thick as a Brick" is a tune that is currently embedded in my subconscious--particularly when I am playing golf or even thinking about it!

Slainte

Rich

PS--Slag--are you going out to see IA's salmon farm in May?

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Richard, I hadn't planned on it but perhaps a little midnight poaching will get me a tee time in trade.
Tommy, ELP was a close second in my youth.  I had everything by ELP; even that triple live album with the best damn drum solo that there ever was.  I miss drum solos.  I miss drugs too.  I mostly miss my 20,000+ megahertz hearing capabilities.  

Emmerlist Davjack

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Count me in as a huge Ian Anderson fan. I was backstage at the LA Sports Arena during a 1983 concert with Tull and Saga, and met the man. Pretty groovey dude! I have seen J. Tull in concert about 6 times!

You want to know who got me into Tull?

My dad!

[JohnV]

Tommy,
Keith Emerson?  Lee Michaels would blow him away, do you know what I mean?

By Willhammer's definition of genius I think that Pete Dye would definitely qualify.  He certainly broke new ground in the 1970s and 1980s, leading to the renaissance of golf architecture.  If art is a serious pursuit and designing a house is a serious pursuit, then golf architecture should also be considered.

My definition of genuis is someone whose brilliant work leads to breaking new ground in a serious pursuit such as physics, mathematics, medicine, art, etc. where the work successfully challenges preconcieved notions and standards of limits, excellence, or even existence itself.