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Scott Macpherson

  • Karma: +0/-0
New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One
« on: May 24, 2010, 12:55:55 PM »
It is a bothersome trend when two of the latest "land mark" designs (as heralded in the media) need to be redesigned after only being open for one season.

The (bouncy) Castle course in St Andrews has had half a dozen or more greens rebuilt over the first two winters since it opened and now  I have just read the BBC piece about the owner of Wentworth considering changes to his course and the redesign has only been open a couple of weeks!

Are there any more?

What is wrong with our design industry! Fair play to push the boundary, but if you don't know what works then why do it? It sounds like Mr Caring is making design decisions and the redesigns are costing him his own money, but if you are going to do that, why even use a designer?

The design industry may be even slower to emerge from the slump it is currently in if new clients come to believe that architects cannot be trusted to deliver designs that work.

Signed,

Saddened & a little frustrated.


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2010, 01:01:22 PM »
Scott:

There have been a couple of recent courses in the states where as many as 17 greens out of 18 were re-done just a year or two after opening, to "fine tune" the design.

And, amazingly, some here think that is a normal part of the process of trying to build something great.  I just bite my tongue until it bleeds.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2010, 03:14:03 PM »
Erin Hills would have to be a poster boy for this concept.  I don't get it either...
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Phil_the_Author

Re: New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2010, 03:24:30 PM »
This isn't something new. Tilly re-routed and redesigned Shawnee in 1912 the year after it opened for play lengthening it by 500+ yards. He did the same thing with a couple of his other courses and also was brought in to redesign courses done by others within a year or so of their opening.

History has seen many a portrait painted by a master which was paid for and then put in the attic because they couldn't stand to look at it and then pay to have another one done.

Why then should we be surprised when golf courses that we've had so much hope for turn out a big disappointment and need re-doing?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2010, 03:43:59 PM »
Phil:

It was a bit different back in 1912, don't you think?  A lot of courses built in the early 1900's started out as very modest affairs and then were redesigned and improved when more funds were available.

The first version of Shawnee was probably not a million-dollar project, and Tillie certainly didn't get paid a six- [or seven-] figure design fee.   The examples Scott was citing cannot make that claim.

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2010, 04:10:21 PM »

Its been a few years now, but didn't they plow under a brand new Greg Norman course before it opened and build a whole new course?  Sounds a little extreme.

Michael Blake

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2010, 04:23:52 PM »
Far too many courses that are only a few years old are being tinkered with.  It's mind-boggling.
Who's to blame?  The client for evidently hiring the wrong designer?  Or the designer for not getting it right the first time?  Or both?

Phil_the_Author

Re: New Land mark courses redesigned in Year One New
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 04:29:53 PM »
Tom,

I completely agree with everything you said. My point, though, is that for some reason, despite the amounts of money spent to design courses there have always been some which were unacceptable when opened for play and that the memberships/owners were willing to pay large sums of money to redesign and rebuild.

There were also many a case where the main featrures of the course, the bunkers and other hazards, were not built or added to the course until a year or more later after the members could see how the course played and so where they should be put. This, too, may (or not) have added to the overall costs of the course' design after the initial outlay. Could you imagine either taking a design comission based upon that scenario, or more importantly, suggesting that very one to your client? Yet, that is what was done. If you go to the other thread (I'll have to look up which one) where Joe Bausch posted the Marine Park article from the brooklyn Eagle in the teens, a member quoted Tilly who had recently visited the course and commended them for not installing the bunkers yet for that very reason! He supposedly told them that it would save them a good deal of money doing it that way as many a course had to redon all their bunkers because they were designed first and not added in later.

There are also a number of examples of courses in the teens and twenties where $40-50,000 was spent to build a course only to have a similar amount or more spent to redesign it a year or two later. Now, I'm no economist, but I would imagine that $40-50,000 is more than equal to seven figures today.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2010, 04:36:13 PM by Philip Young »